Gabriele: 0:00

You finally have five minutes of understanding what your true wishes are for the day, for the next week, for the next year in life. You can think about it, you can permit yourself to think about it. What do I really want in my life?

Cody: 0:35

Welcome to the Mind Hack podcast. Today we have the privilege of conversing with the true luminary in the realm of psychology and motivation. A professor of psychology at New York University, New York. Dr. Gabriel Oettingen. Dr. oettingen's name is synonymous with groundbreaking insights and transformative methodologies. With a distinguished career spanning decades, she has ascended to the pinnacle of her field emerging as a leading authority on motivation and goal pursuit. Her journey has been characterized by rigorous research, pioneering theories, and a relentless pursuit of understanding what drives human behavior. At the heart of her contributions lies the woop method, an innovation that has redefined how we approach our dreams and ambitions. woop an acronym for wish outcome, obstacle, and Plan is not merely a concept. It's a dynamic approach that has ignited a global movement. This strategic approach has yielded profound benefits across various domains like enhanced psychological wellbeing, health and lifestyle improvement, social and relational growth, academic excellence, and more. The significance of woop extends beyond theory and into the fabric of practical application. It garnered praise and mentions from different articles and influential organizations. Such as the New York Times, Forbes, psychology Today, B B C, Washington Post. And she was even interviewed By Larry King. Research and studies have embraced this method, recognizing its potency in fostering genuine transformation. It's not just a tool, it's a paradigm shift that has caught the attention of experts, researchers, and leaders worldwide. So join us as we unravel the remarkable journey of Dr. Gabriel Gin, exploring the depths of motivation, the essence of the woop method, and the resounding impact on a global scale. Dr. Gabriel o thank you for being with us here today. So I, I read your book and I started to implement some of the woop methodology that you had outlined, and I found it to be really helpful. Despite being a successful entrepreneur, I'm somebody who struggles with procrastination and having this methodology, it allowed me to overcome some of this procrastination, and I found it to be tremendously helpful in more aspects of my life, the more that I used it. And I'm sure that's been the case with a lot of other people. So can you please start out by saying what is woop and how does that relate to this misconception of positive thinking?

Gabriele: 3:26

Well woop is an acronym for a imagery strategy that people can learn and apply to better their life. And the acronym stands for wish, outcome, obstacle, and Plan. So it is a four step that you can apply to yourself. You only need five minutes or so. And what it does, it clarifies where you want to go, how nice it would be if you actually went and fulfilled your wish. And then also, and importantly, what is in your way? What is it in you that stands in the way? And by facing that obstacle, you can make the plan and then you can go and have the energy actually, To fulfill your wishes and to face the obstacles in your life.

Cody: 4:41

And so how does this differ than say, I remember being a student and I think a lot of young people that they often have dreams and huge ambitions, and they can get lost just dreaming of the future that they desire. what's wrong with that?

Gabriele: 4:59

Nothing is wrong with that if you want to explore the various possibilities of the future. Nothing is wrong with that if you just want to momentarily increase your mood a bit. But if you actually want to implement your wishes and dreams in reality, then what we have found. Shear positive daydreams and fantasies and thinking about the future is a real impediment. And we found that in many areas, so in the achievement area, in the health area, in the interpersonal area, in the self-improvement area, and even with respect to mental health. So for example, the more positively women enrolled in a weight reduction program fantasized about their success coming out of the program, the fewer pounds they shed. Three months later, one year later, two years later, the more positively university graduates fantasized about an easy transition to work life. The fewer dollars they earned two years later, the fewer job offers they had gotten and the fewer job obligations they had sent off or take the romantic relationship area, the more positively students fantasized about getting together with the person they had a crush on, the less likely it was that they actually got into a romantic relationship with that person. And even in the healthy area, hip replacement surgery in patients who fantasized about a quick recovery, they walked fewer steps after surgery, they were less successful as judged by the physical therapists. In terms of general recovery and take the mental health area, the more positively people fantasize about the future, the better they feel right at the moment. The less depressed they feel right at the moment, but over time they get more depressed, and that is partly due to having done less, having had success, less less effort, less success, more depressed.

Cody: 7:55

and so If I understand it correctly, the concept of visualizing and fantasizing about a future can be in the short term, it can be helpful, it can increase your mood, help you feel better, but in the long term, just imagining a better future doesn't seem to actually help you get there. Why is that?

Gabriele: 8:20

Exactly. That was the next question we asked ourselves. Why is that? Isn't positive thinking what we all learned, the best thing you can do in order to achieve our successes? So we did experimented work. We induced one group of participants with positive thinking about the future. The control groups had to question the future, the positive future, or they were induced to think factual thoughts or negative thoughts, or no thoughts or irrelevant thoughts. And as compared to these control groups, Those who were induced, these positive fantasies in day rooms about the future, they felt they're already there. So our mental life is so vivid that we think, Hmm, we are already there. So they're already in the gold box, and what do you do if you're in the gold box? You relax. So they relaxed, and we could measure that actually by self-report. So we just asked the people how energized they felt with respect to implementing their wish. But you could also measure it by look at the blood pressure. So systolic blood pressure went down so they relaxed. They didn't put in the effort that is needed for fulfilling our wishes and solving our concerns. So these positive fantasies and daydreams, they sap our energy and that then mediates or predicts that we actually do less on. So in daily life and then we have less success.

Cody: 10:22

And as I understand it, when we dream or fantasize about a positive future or something that we, hope to aspire towards that our brain can't actually tell the difference between not having achieved it and actually having achieved it. So in some ways it's counterintuitive just to exist in the realm of positive thinking.

Gabriele: 10:46

Yeah. If we exist in the realm of positive thinking, we are a little fooled. we're tempted to be Already there. So you might say, okay, why don't we then get rid of these positive fantasies in daydreams? We might as well just, you know, think negatively. But that's not the solution either, because because we need to take our positive fantasies in daydreams seriously. Why do we need to take them seriously? Because as we found, these positive fantasies in daydreams are an expression or a reflection of our needs of that. What we don't have of that, what we are lacking. So for example, we did experiments where we asked participants to come to the lab, but we asked them. Please not drink any liquids about four hours before the experiment. So they came in pretty thirsty. Then we fed them salty pretzels so that they were really thirsty. Half of the participants then got spring water so that they can quench the thirst. The other half was kept thirsty. And then we simply measured where do their positive fantasies in daydreams go? And you can imagine the people who were thirsty, they were positively fantasizing about getting to the water fountain and drinking water. And, um, they looked at the way where the next water fountain is in their mind. The other ones, they're positively fantasized about any of their unfulfilled needs, but not about the need for water. So it seems then that these positive fantasies and daydreams are an expression of our needs. And they're important because that gives action, the direction, and you can do these experiments, and that's what we did also with psychological needs. So you deprive people of meaning, and then people positively fantasize about getting a more meaningful job. Or you deprive people of interpersonal relationships. Think about the pandemic, and then people fantasize positively about meeting their friends and the family. So these positive fantasies and daydreams, they're very important. They're an expression of our needs. We need to take them seriously because they give action the direction. The only problem with those positive fantasies in daydreams is that at the same time, they sap our energy. So we were in a dilemma. What can we do now in order to make these positive fantasies in daydreams fruitful for people to actually go the way of fulfilling them? And that's where we then came up what we call mental contrasting of the positive future, positively fantasizing about the future, but then mentally contrasting these fantasies and engagements about the future with the obstacle of reality that stands in the way that we actually fulfill our wishes in daydreams. And what then happens is that we realize oops. we are not there yet. Here's an obstacle. We need to get over it. We are not in paradise yet. We need to look at the obstacle. Then we get the energy because we see, okay, we need to get over it. And what is equally important, we get the energy. Plus, by looking at the obstacle, we will find a way to overcome it. So it is really important to have both positive fantasies and daydreams about the future, giving action the direction, and linking these positive fantasies and daydreams about the future to the obstacle of reality, giving them a good dose of reality, and then looking the obstacle in the face and saying, okay, this is my obstacle. This is my obstacle in me because obstacles in yourself you can change and then understanding by looking at the obstacle, how to overcome it. But when you look at the obstacle, you can also discover, Hmm, this obstacle I cannot or I don't want to overcome because it's too costly, it doesn't fit in my life at the moment, it's just not possible that I get over it. And what happens then? Then I can actively disengage from wish fulfillment and I can put all my energy in more promising endeavors in wishes that are actually possible to be fulfilled. So what mental contrasting then is it's a strategy, a mental strategy that helps you to have clear priorities, priorities to fulfill wishes are dear to your heart, but at the same time, also surmountable. I mean, the obstacles are surmountable, the wishes are achievable, or setting priorities in terms of saying, Uhuh, I get out of here this wish I put aside, I disengage from fulfilling it, and I go, I i put my energy into something which is more promising and more feasible. So it saves a lot of resources to use the strategy of mental contrasting.

Cody: 17:34

And so positive thinking is a function of our human needs. And you discover through many, many studies that when you add this mental contrasting component where you're not only engaging this positive future, but you're also looking at the negative, what happens if you don't achieve this goal? What happens if you don't get it? I'm really curious, what is the underlying psychological phenomenon that causes, as you've seen and studied, an increase in motivation when we perform this sort of mental contrasting exercise?

Gabriele: 18:12

Well, mental contrasting is linking the positive future to the reality. It's not looking at what happens if I don't get it. It's looking at what's in my way that I get it. So it's looking at what is it in me that hinders me of fulfilling my wishes? Can be an emotion, can be a belief, can be a bad habit, whatever it is. But it is the obstacle in the way. It is What keeps me from actually fulfilling my wish from actually going all the way of wish fulfillment. What is it that keeps me from doing it? What stops me? So it is not the what's happening if I don't do it, it's the what stops me from doing it. That's the of mental contrasting, it's identifying what impedement. I have in myself, not in other people because I can't change other people. I can't change my boss. I can't change my family. I can't change, can't I? I can't change them, but I can change me. That's the reason why we say, okay, check out the obstacle in you. You have a much bigger chance that you can overcome that obstacle in you, that you can overcome the resentment to your boss or the being unnerved by your family or whatever. You can do that. And then once you change your behavior, you overcome your obstacle on the way to wish fulfillment, then the context, the environment, the other people change too. But first, you need to change. And how do you do it? You first identify the wish. Where do you really want to go as an expression of your need, of your true need? Not what other people say of what you need, and then you put the obstacle, which is your obstacle, not other people's obstacle. You put that obstacle in the way, just mentally, and then you understand, ooh, here I want to go, and that's my obstacle. And by looking at the obstacle and really facing it with a little bit of courage or a little bit of humor, don't take myself so serious. Once you understand what the obstacle is, you have a very high chance that you can actually overcome it.

Cody: 21:08

I'm gonna take a tangent and. I know that you've been studying this and, and you've been, you've almost dedicated your life to the research behind motivation and really helping people find ways to overcome obstacles in their personal lives. What was the initial hypothesis? What was the initial thing you were trying to solve that then turned into this methodology we call woop today?

Gabriele: 21:37

That's a good question because we stumbled into poop. I never started out by saying, you know, I want to discover a kind of mental strategy that helped people to change the behavior. It was all coincidence that we discovered that, but we, but it started out by wanting to understand what made people be resilient under very, Difficult situations. So I wanted to study hope and in psychology, hope has been operationalized or measured in ways which are similar to studying. Expectancies and expectancies are thinking about the future based on past experience. But I reasoned hope is not expectancy hope. Despite hope can be defined as having positive fantasies about the future. Despite that, the odds might not be so promising. So the idea was what makes people sort of go on despite. Dire circumstances. So I went into these positive fantasies in daydreams and thought, oh, these positive fantasies in daydreams, they're probably having positive effects on behavior change. And you know, all my way being a researcher, I learned from data. So what we found was the contrary of what we expected. We found these positive fantasies in daydreams. They demotivate people like we just talked about. You know, people fantasize about the future. They indulge in these positive fantasies and they did less because because these positive fantasies in day, which they might this sap the energy. so then, We needed to ask why is that? Then we did the experimental work, which we just talked about, and then I realized, hmm, I wasn't right. Positive fantasy daydreams alone, they're not enough. We need to find what is the obstacle in our way. And then we did a lot of experiments where we showed that it's really the obstacle in the way looking at the obstacle in the way which make us jump, which make us active, or which make us actively getting out if we realize that the obstacle is not so surmountable. So that helps us to really set priorities and do things that are promising and not do things that are futile anyway. And when we did that, We found it in the achievement area, the personal area, the healthy area in the self-improvement area with respect to emotion control, whatever. But then we also wanted to know why is that what is actually happening when you do this metal contrasting? And by the way, mental contrasting is the w o o of woop. So it's wish outcome. That's the future. Imagine the outcome and then identify the obstacle. And imagine the obstacle. So it's the first three letters of woop, and we looked at what are the mechanisms? Why is that that mental contrasting helps people so clearly to set priorities, to go for the wishes that are feasible and to let go from the wishes that are just not feasible. And then we found three mechanisms that are important here. Cognitive mechanisms, motivational mechanisms and mechanisms linked to how people process negative feedback. So the cognitive mechanisms are such that when you do mental contrasting that the future and the obstacle are linked together. They're glued together. So if you think about the future, the obstacle pops in right away. And that without the people know, it's so fast that you don't realize it. And then at the same time, the obstacle is linked to the behavior to overcome the obstacle. So thinking about the future, the obstacle and the behavior to overcome obstacle, and in addition, the obstacle is now. Really processed as an obstacle. So for example, if you want to do well in an interview and somebody called you and said, oh, oh let's go to the movies, then it's not a nice invitation anymore. It's now an obstacle to doing well on the interview. So you change the meaning of the obstacle. That's what mental contrasting does, and it does that without the people even know. And the nice thing is that linking the future and the obstacle and the behavior to overcome obstacle and changing the meaning of the obstacle into understanding that it is an obstacle, then predicts the behavior change. So when the obstacle then actually occurs, people immediately go for it. Without that they even know. So that's the cognitive mechanism. Now the motivational mechanism is very simple. It gives you energy and again, you can measure it by blood pressure. So when you do metal contrasting, huh, you, your blood pressure goes up because you are ready to go and transfer your wishes. And then the third mechanism, very quickly when people criticize you or when you get setbacks, you process the information and tailored in the setback and tailored in the negative feedback. And you don't take it personally, you're not defensive. You take the information, say, give me more, give me more. I need it. And then it helps you plan and go the way to wish fulfillment. So these are the three mechanisms.

Cody: 28:39

Wow. I love that. the mental contrasting changes even our subconscious internal perception of that obstacle. In that it, a lot of the procrastination is really the fear of the unknown. And we, we look at this big thing we have to do and we just don't want to do it, and it's going to take sustained effort or we don't, we aren't, we're not sure how to do it, so many things, but when we do this mental contrasting, we are associating the positive outcome with the act of doing it.

Gabriele: 29:14

Right via the obstacle. So it's the positive outcome. What stands in the way? What holds me back, what stops me, and then ah, that I can do in order to overcome the obstacle. Then, that's the process.

Cody: 29:31

In your research, did you see any correlation in that motivation and how it increases motivation and you studied the blood pressure? Is there also a correlation with the increase in norepinephrine at all that could be causing that increase in motivation?

Gabriele: 29:48

Interesting. Um, that you asked that we never looked at the chemistry. We looked at, brain processes. What is happening when you actually do the medical contrasting procedure. And we found that metal contrasting versus indulging in the positive future only, or just resting, doing nothing, causes activity. In the brain that is linked to holistic thinking is linked to autobiographical memory is linked to the visual areas and is linked to intention formation. So we know it draws on cognitive effort, but the consequences are then non-conscious. But at the moment, when you do five minutes of mental contrasting or woop, it takes mental effort. And I think we need to know that it's not like a pill you throw in and then you are happy forever. It takes mental effort. But this five minutes of mental effort, Then pays off in terms of you get the help of the non-conscious processes so that when the obstacle occur, you immediately start, you not even think about procrastination anymore. You immediately start because you said, okay, if I get anxious to start my report, then I will just sit down and start writing something. And when you do that, these non-conscious processes will sit you down and you write before you even know.

Cody: 31:53

I believe that's the p part of woop, the planning phase, right? The if then planning.

Gabriele: 31:59

Yes. But the link between the obstacle and the behavior to overcome obstacle is already established with mental contrasting. But very often the obstacles are tough. Very strong emotion, a very strong impulse, anger. These kind of, oh, they're so hard to control. So we thought, okay, let's do the P part where we consciously establish or strengthen, strengthen I, I must say, the link between the obstacle and the behavior to overcome obstacle. And that's what the planning does. And the planning is based on Peter Gollwitzer's research on implementation intentions, which are basically if then plans if situation, then I will behavior. Now these if then plans in the context of mental contrasting are looking the following, they say if obstacle, so I imagine the obstacle, then I will behavior to overcome obstacle. So it links the obstacle to the behavior to overcome obstacle. And by doing that, even if I have strong impulses or strong emotions, think about resentment or think about anxiety, then the link is so strong that I would just go right into it.

Cody: 33:39

In your research, have you seen any say groups of people say high performing athletes, a group or, part of a part of a group of people who have naturally had this sort of mental contrasting something that they already do?

Gabriele: 33:55

That's a very interesting question. We did a lot of studies where we thought, okay, let's see how many people in different populations do mental contrasting spontaneously. Because if we all do. Contrast instantaneously. We don't need to do interventions, we don't need to learn things because we do it anyway. most people indulge in the positive future, at least in the western world, and maybe only 10 or 15, maximum of 20% depending on the study. Do mental contrasting spontaneously. So it takes mental effort. That might be the reasons why we don't do it spontaneously. Now, you were asking asking about the athletes. We thought, okay, athletes are such professional So we took dancers, Latin American dancers, and they were high, high, high performing. Really, I mean, athletes that was not just for pleasure and we thought maybe for them indulging is enough, maybe for them because they're so trained that just thinking about the positive future will already make them go there. But we found the contrary. So first of all, the people who were higher performing were classified as higher performing, did more mental contrasting spontaneously than Amma amateurs, and then among the very professionals before a competition, those we spontaneously did mental contrasting, were performing better later on in the competition. So it seems that even in high performing athletes, spontaneous, mental contrasting, Will help you to perform better. I mean, they're high performing anyway, but even better, so, so it seems it really helps, even the high performing athletes.

Cody: 36:18

and so woop, in some way it's, it's thinking about the future of what you desire, but then also thinking about the various obstacles that can come up along the way. And so if you're an athlete, you can visualize, say another player doing something that you know is your weak spot and you can visualize what you're going to do. So it's a form of mental practice. And I know this is something that's performed and thought of quite often. I know as a pilot. Uh, so you have something called the, chair flying where you just sit in a chair and you mentally visualize pressing the various buttons so that you're inserting it into your head. so the mental practice is a helpful technique. And what is the difference exactly between, woop, is it simply that we're the thinking of the, the outcome that we desire?

Gabriele: 37:10

No, actually, the outcome that we desire is also. Very prevalent in, um, actually in all our minds and also in sports and, you know, look at organizations, consultants say, oh, you need to visualize, you need to have the vision. You need to have the vision. only the beginning. As I said, it's an expression of our needs. And if you really think about what is your wish, what is it really okay that, that's important and that's the desire then. But just sort of indulging in these desires obviously didn't help us as our data showed, but mentally practice alone doesn't help us either. You do mental practice, you know, 10 times a music stroke or something, or in tennis or, yeah. The kind of backhand or something 10 times. 10 times, that's not the issue. The issue in mental contrasting is the obstacle combined with the positive thinking about the future. So you need both. The positive thinking about the future gives the action, the direction, and the obstacle in myself gives me the energy. And by looking at the obstacle, facings the obstacle, I will understand what to do to overcome the obstacle. And when I do that, in addition, these non-conscious processes help me to directly go into action without changing my beliefs. I don't need to change my beliefs. I don't need to change my attitudes, which is the usual way that behavior change strategies try to operate. I don't need to change that. It's very hard to change attitudes, very hard to change beliefs. With mental contrasting and with woop, you directly go into action. You act before you even know. And that's why when you use mental contrasting in your daily life, so let's say you do mental contrasting in the morning, five minutes, and then you go in the day. So you do it in the morning, for example, for the day. What is my wish for today? What do I really wish, let's say in my work or for my relationships, what do I wish for my relationships today? What would I like to achieve there? Or fitness? What would I like to achieve today in my, for my fitness? Okay, so you take one wish and then it goes through the woop exercise. I would be so nice if I achieved that. And you imagine the best outcome and instead of indulging on the, on the best outcome, you then switch to the obstacle. You say, Hmm, what stands in the way that I go jogging for half an hour today? What is my obstacle? What is it in me that stands in the way? And then you say, ah, if I feel so tired coming home in the evening, I will put my shoes on and just walk out of the door. Alright, so you do that in the morning. You go through the day, you forget about it in the evening when you're tired sitting in the couch, suddenly you say, whoa, my shoes out, out of the door. It immediately goes into behavior. But then you think about other things again, and at the end of the day you think about, actually what did I do today? Ah, half an hour jogging. Interesting. I forgot about it. That's what I wooped this morning. So these non-conscious processes, they act by themselves. need to think about it anymore. You just do it. And you do it very often without realizing that you do it. And then at the very end you think, oh my God. Yeah, actually I went jogging or this meeting was really great. I was finally a little bit more assertive. Ah, this morning I wooped the meeting. I wanted to be a little assertive. Or you might have said, I. This time, I don't want to be so assertive. You know, another person who usually is too assertive might say, Hmm, I want to hold back today in the meeting. Everybody has different wishes and then you realize, , ah that's what I did. But these non-conscious processes operate by themselves and you don't need to think about it anymore. They do it for you. And it's, it's fun because you, in the evening you say, ah, it was so easy. I not even realized that I started the report or whatever my wish was. Because you do it automatically. And when you do it automatically, it's um, it's without effort. The only effort is the mental effort for five minutes in the morning doing the little exercise. But the mental effort is also the. It's worthwhile, but it's, it's also fun because you finally understand where you want to go. You finally have five minutes of understanding what your true wishes are for the day, for the next week, for the next year in life. You can think about it, you can permit yourself to think about it. What do I really want in my life? And by doing that, you understand what is actually present in you as a need, what you need, what is lacking. And that's great because now you can actually fulfill your need. And then at the same time, certainly when you go, when you come to the obstacle part, you also understand. Hmm. That's my obstacle. Interesting. Really resentful for that person. Or I'm so anxious, or I feel failure, or I procrastinate. But why do you procrastinate? Well, I procrastinate. Hmm. Why do I procrastinate? You can ask yourself. Well, yeah, because at the end I'm anxious to start. So when you, when you identify the obstacle, the obstacle might be, ah, I don't have time, for example. Great excuse. Okay. So then you say, why don't I have time? Ah hmm. Because very often I sit in meetings and actually nothing is happening. So why do I sit in these meetings? Ah, because I cannot say no. Ah, now I have it. And now you can go deeper and say, why can't I say no? You might think, Hmm, because I'm afraid to lose the love of the others. So everybody has their own wish. Everybody has the fantasy of wish fulfillment, just their own. And everybody has their own obstacle because everybody has a different life with different experience. And the idea is that everybody needs to find out what is my wish? What is my outcome? Imagine the outcome. What is my obstacle? Imagine the obstacle. And then if obstacle, then I will. Overcome obstacle plan. So the behavior to overcome the obstacle. Everybody has different possibilities and different preferences. So you need to identify the wish, the outcome, the obstacle, and the behavior. To overcome obstacle, woop is simply giving the structure. Everybody needs to fill in the content and therefore you can apply to any wish you have. You can apply it as often as you want to, as many wishes as you have. You can apply it in stressful times, you can apply it in good times, and you want to make it a little better. What do I want to do tonight? Ah, I want to have a nice evening. Oh, great. What is my wish for tonight? So the idea really is, it's just a tool. It's like a bicycle. You learn to ride a bicycle. Now, many people learned how to ride a bicycle. It's a skill, and then they can take the bicycle and go anywhere they want. Now, with woop, it's the same thing. It's a skill. You need to learn it, you need to practice it, and then you can apply it to any kind of wish you have, and you will understand where you want to go, what is in your way, and whether you can overcome that obstacle, and whether you want to overcome that, when you want to act on it right now, or maybe later, but now you actually face the obstacle. You sort it through, and then you can go with full love. To implement your wish, or you could say, okay, not this wish, not timely. Not possible at the moment, and now I go full speed for another more promising enterprise.

Cody: 48:17

When I was a kid, I had huge ambitions. I was easily able to imagine what I wanted. And I find that as I get older, those dreams and those ambitions, they're harder to connect with emotionally. They're harder to imagine because I've checked off so many different items in my bucket list, and so I'm constantly questioning like, what's next? And I'm sure you've read the book, man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl who really touts this idea that no matter what situation you're in, if you can find meaning. Then that can be the conviction that allows you to get through that experience. And so is woop more for somebody? Because I'm sure we've all met those people that have strong convictions. They know what their purpose is in life, and the rest of us are just looking at awe at these people that are just endlessly motivated and they're just accomplishing their goal. And I'm sure we all wish we could be that. And so is woop for people who don't have a strong sense of meaning. I mean, how does say a lack of meaning or, a lack of, of awareness of really what do I want in life? How can woop help us in that?

Gabriele: 49:29

That's a very good question. Um, now woop is for everyone and I think it's, it's a fairy tale that people have, meaning just per se. We always need to find meaning to search for, meaning. We need to try hard to really understand what our wishes are, and that is enabled by woop because the first step and a very important step is to find a wish that is dear to your heart. But at the same time, it's also feasible for you to implement that wish, but it needs to be a little challenging. And very often people who are not practiced in woop, they would come up with something very quick. I want to be rich. I want to, uh, to have good relationships where wherever I go, I want to have a promotion. I want to have an A. Well, yes, you want to have an A, but think about it. What do you really want the love of your parents, the kind of respect of your peers to be able to go to a good university? What is it to gain some re self respect? What is it really? What is behind that quick answer? And then you think a little bit more careful, and then you get more meaning and you get more meaning it should take your time. So woop is a very slow exercise. So you need to leave the world out there. Try to get five minutes to be completely uninterrupted. You can do it in a subway when there's white noise, but you can't do doublet tasking. So don't try to do email while you do. You woop. Don't try to talk to others. Just take the five minutes just for you start to be really slow and let the world be out there. They come back later on, but not now. And then you go through the exercise and the first thing is you ask yourself, what is my wish? Can be a wish for today? Can be a wish for the next year, for the next four weeks, whatever you choose it. What is my wish? What do I really want? Do I want to finish the report, huh? But maybe what I really want is meet a friend whom, whom I really care for, and I know they don't do so well. Maybe that's what I really want. So you want to find out what you really want today, tomorrow, the next week, whatever, whatever timeframe you choose, and that will bring you much closer to making meaning.'cause you can be honest to yourself. You don't need to tell anybody. If you want to tell some somebody, if you trust somebody, do talk about woop. Do it with a friend whom you trust. It can be very emotional. So it might be good to have someone around whom you can talk to about your woop experience. But try to be slow and patient. Be patient with yourself. If you don't find the wish immediately, it's perfectly fine. Think about it. What do I really want? And when you found the wish, then summarize it in few words. Don't talk too much about it because it needs to be very specific in order that woop works. the four steps need to be very specific. So you need to have a very specific wish one, wish not many, one wish, one wish at a time. The other ones you can woop later. So one wish and you put it in front of your mind. This one wish three words or an image doesn't matter. And then you go on. And you ask yourself, if I fulfilled myself that wish, how would I feel? What would be the best outcome if I fulfilled myself that wish and identify very often, it's an emotion. Happy, relieved, proud. What is it? Find it again. Summarize it in few words. Put it in front of your mind and what you then do you imagine that outcome intensely that you might go? Then you can close your eyes. Imagine it. Imagine it for a while. Get your positive fantasies going. Then you can slowly wake up. And go to the third step, the second goal, the obstacle. Then you ask yourself, what prevents me from tackling my wish and experiencing that outcome? What holds me back? What is it in me that stands in the way here? What is my main inner obstacle? Find it and then you find it. You find your obstacle, like I said, can be an emotional, like anger, anxiety, resentment, envy, whatever it is, might not be flattering. Don't worry. You don't need to tell anybody can be a belief. ah Somebody said girls cannot do that, ugh can I do that probably i can? So so these beliefs, they stand in the way very often, or it can be a habit. Habit of consuming something, habit of being impulsive, whatever. It's, you need to find out, don't take a word of anybody else. You need to find out and then you can actually dig a little deeper and say, ah, my obstacle is I don't have time. So why don't you have time? Hmm. I'm on Facebook all the time. Social media. Hmm. Okay, so why in social media All the time. But you can also go with the social media, let's say, okay, next time when I'm on social media, take my phone off and do whatever. The wish is all about. So then I put it away and I stop my report or whatever it is. So whatever, it's important that you identify the obstacle, that you summarize the obstacle in few words or an image, and then you imagine the obstacle. You imagine the obstacle occurring because our kind of experiment showed that it's the imagery which makes the effect. So you need to have the imagery of the outcome and the imagery of the obstacle. So the two Os they need to be imagined. And then when you imagine the obstacle, then you realize, ah, this is what I can do to overcome it. is, I put my phone away. I apologize and say, okay, today I have no time, but maybe at the weekend or whatever. It's so you understand what you can do to overcome your obstacle by imagining the obstacle. And then you do, you find specific behavior to overcome the obstacle. Very concrete, put on my shoes and go out or start with a report or do the phone call and say, I'm sorry. Today I can't come, whatever. It's, and then you say, if obstacle, imagine the obstacle, then I will. And then you put in the very specific behavior and that's all. That's, that's woop. And you can, when you, when you practice, that you practice, you can practice in the morning, can ritualize the practice. You can say, okay. Whenever I'm done with my coffee, five minutes, sit down, do my woop. Or if I go for a walk, just very clearly do the woop and the app. The woop app helps because it forces you to put in the wish outcome, obstacle, and plan. So you need to be very specific. So you can do it either mentally or you can do it with the app or you can put it in writing. Whatever is better for you. But you need to practice. You need to practice. And once you are in the kind of woop mindset, you can do it also in stress situations. So you need to give a talk. Super nervous. So what is my wish for the talk? What is the outcome, the best outcome? So if the wish is, get the message across the best outcome, ah, I would feel happy if they understand what I'm saying. What is the obstacle? Ah, I'm getting anxious. Or my old fear is that I might not do well. Fear of failure or some kind of belief I dragged around from childhood or that's my obstacle. So imagine the obstacle, the fear coming up. Okay? Okay. If the fear comes up, I focus on explaining principle, and then once the fear comes up, you not even think about it. You focus. That's a nice thing. So the, the non-conscious processes are just a super, nice gift that, that the woop exercise brings along. And we discovered it in our, in our experience, more or less by accident.

Cody: 1:01:05

Well, that's, uh, absolutely fascinating. I am wondering because you mentioned a lot about how woop is utilized in a method where you have a goal in mind. It's something that you want, but there's often a lot of things that we don't want to do. We don't want to take out the trash or we don't want to do our work. How do we utilize woop in that method? Do we use woop, thinking about I need to take out the trash and visualizing ourselves, taking out the trash and, and trying to overcome the obstacles? Or is there a bigger picture that we need to be utilizing woop in that context? Like, can I use it on a per task basis because say my own anxiety about accomplishing a certain task is so high that I can't even do any work. Or should I use woop, picturing myself going through task, through task, through task and just being a productive person? Or can you use it at this minute level on a individual? Itemized thing of potentially something that you don't want to do, but you have to do.

Gabriele: 1:02:10

right So very often, woop can be used for things you don't want to do. So, um, for example, You know, think about somebody who is, who is addicted. They don't want to stop drinking alcohol. You don't want to stop smoking if you're addicted. But then what you can do, you could say, what is my biggest wish? Well, at the end, I want to wake up sober again. I want to repair the relationship to my family. I want to speed up my achievement in my job and become punctual. So you ask people what they really want, what makes meaning for them, them you don't talk about the alcohol. or the Smoking or whatever the addiction is all about, then wouldn't it be nice to be sober again, to have the good relationship to the family? So what is the best outcome? And people get in there. Then you say, what is, what is in my way? Huh? What is in my way that I get drunk every evening? Or what is my way that over the weekends, the binge drinking or what is in my way that I have yellow fingers from smoking or whatever. Now the vice is in the obstacle, and now I understand why it is important for me to overcome those obstacle. before It was just that people nagged me and said, ah, you should drink less. But now drinking less gets meaning, gets a new meaning, because it's the obstacle to something I really wish to achieve. Now, the obstacle has a different meaning. the drinking has a different meaning because it's, it's there in the way of my, of my wish, which is really dear to my heart. And that would also mean that now since the, stopping to drink has a different meaning, I can put it in the next wish. So I could say, oh, I really want to start drinking because now I really want it. Before I didn't want it, but now I want it because I know it's your obstacle to something. Higher up, which I really want, and then you can go and woop yourself through life like that. So now suddenly the bringing out trash is not a terrible duty anymore, but it's maybe something that stands in the way of having a good relationship to your housemate. So if you understand that my wish is to have a good relationship to my housemate, wouldn't be nice if, if that was a little bit more harmony in my apartment wear, share with others, my apartment, wouldn't it be nice? Okay. Yes. It wouldn't be nice. It would feel much easier and the tension would go away. So what stands in the way. Well then I never bring out the trash, and now I understand, oh, I really want to bring out the trash because by doing the woop, the obstacle gets a different meaning. So when you, when you really go to your wishes, then you will discover a lot of obstacles that you identified as cumbersome behavior beforehand, but now it's the obstacle to something you really want. And now suddenly the obstacle is turned into a wish. You know, I want to bring out the trash is now a wish. What stands in the way that I'm lazy or it's cold out there or something. Okay. If it's cold, then I will run.

Cody: 1:06:55

So it's about teaching us that, say the task itself. Maybe it's bringing out the trash, but that's the obstacle. But we really need to think behind that. Why do we wanna take out the trash? It's to say, have a better relationship with our roommates and really making that the wish that we start from, and then go through that process. I.

Gabriele: 1:07:20

what I'm saying is because you were asking for meaning, And, and whether meaning is, is kind of given to some people and not to others. And I would argue me, meaning needs to be, achieved in the sense that you need to have a little bit of mental effort. in order to get meaning. And if you understand what is important to you, so for example, a harmonious, relationship to you and roommates. Then these cumbersome things, which are just kind of a nuisance. They get a different context because now they're an obstacle to something that is really important to you and that will harmonize your life a lot. So then these kind of cumbersome things in achievement, like. Learning some vocabulary or writing a report or doing some literature research or doing some calculations or doing the taxes or something. They get, they get a very different, interpretation. If I say, okay, I really want to have a good weekend. I want to have a good and relaxed weekend, wouldn't it be nice? Yes, I would feel happy. So what stands in the way that I still didn't do my taxes? So then the taxes. Not doing the taxes is the obstacle of having a good weekend. You do your taxes then really quickly. So go and let your wishes lead you to meaning in relationships, in achievement in fitness. And these other things will sort out themselves as obstacles. Much, much easier

Cody: 1:09:19

Having touted this, method, this woop method, how has that made you feel? Is, is this the thing that's, uh, given you a lot of meaning from getting so many positive feedback of stories of people, it's, it's helped you? how does it feel to, to really still even be talking about it today?

Gabriele: 1:09:38

Actually. I feel very grateful. I feel grateful that, certainly for the feedback. Um, but I feel especially grateful that woop really could help people and, And that's terrific. You know, I was so fortunate to be able to do research, for such a long time and being sponsored and having students to work with and collaborators and, an environment, which sometimes wasn't easy, but, which allowed me to actually do something where I felt, I could, you know, quench my curiosity and, um, and, and be like a little bit like a, like a, you know, like a dog sort of, sort of looking for things. So, so that was a lot of fun. But I think what was even more or much more rewarding was that, that we, by accident, there was really pure luck discovered the principle that. We realized Okay, can help people. And it helped me. It helped me enormously. I would've never written the Rethinking Positive Thinking book without woop. I would've never done an app or a website or a podcast with you, um, you know, without having sort of done woop for a while so that I could actually dare to go beyond my comfort zone. Academia is a very cozy comfort zone in a way, because you don't need to go out into life and to go out is just, sometimes you, you feel, hmm, it's kind of scary. But then when you have woop, it's so much easier to actually go out and do things and understand what, what stands in the way. And, um, so I'm very grateful, that we could, that we discovered that, and that actually it was also possible to, to bring it out in the world. And, then we can translate it into so many questions, so many languages. So we have, um, you know, people from all over the world. I think it's now translated into thirteen languages or so the, the website in the app so people can participate and people can participate from all different corners in the world. because we, you know, we didn't charge any, any money. so people can really have access to the principle and if they. Take a little time to really go and get the manual down and, use the app and pay a little attention and listen to some of the, instructional videos and audios. They can learn it, they can learn it by themselves. And, um, that's fun. That's great.

Cody: 1:12:45

If somebody wants to learn more about woop, where can they go? Is there a website or is there a book that they can read?

Gabriele: 1:12:53

Yeah. Actually you can go to the woop or w o o p my life.org website. this website, has a little bit of research on it, but what is more important? You can download the woop instructions. There's a woop kit you can download. There you have all the instructions and you can do mentally just, you know, by thinking about it. But you can do also in writing. And then if you download the woop app, so again, W O O P and then app, it's free app you can download and you can actually start doing a woop right away. And the woop app is really helpful because it forces you to specify the four steps to specify a wish outcome. Imagine the outcome, obstacle, imagine the obstacle, and then the plan. And by specifying you make woop more productive, more working.'cause you need to have one wish, one outcome, one obstacle, and one plan at a time. Half an hour later, you can do another woop, or five minutes later you can do another woop. But you need to be very specific when you do the woop exercise. And don't forget the imagery. The imagery is making the whole music. So the outcome and the obstacle need to be imagined. And, so the instructions are on there. That's the second part. You have teaching videos and teaching audios. and look for these videos and audios that they help you understand the principle and they help you, especially also to apply it to your life. And then practice, practice, practice, and play with it. Make it, make it customary to your life. and then if you have questions, you can always contact us too. So it's the website, woop my life.org website. It's the woop app. And then in two 14, um, there is the book Rethinking Positive Thinking. And that is published by Penguin Random House. and you can get it by Amazon or any, any kind of bookstore,

Cody: 1:15:30

Is there any particular story or study that you did? Maybe it's a story of somebody who read about your method and they, they told you how it helped them. Is there anything that stands out that you feel something to this day in terms of, of that message that you received in terms of how it's helped somebody?

Gabriele: 1:15:51

but probably many . Um, I remember the kind of elderly A woman saying, oh, you helped me move. Still in my old days I could move. And I'm so happy now that, I made that move because I have this kind of spirit again. Um, you know, people said, okay, from one day to another, they stopped smoking. we got people away from, gambling. we got people away from alcohol. Um, overweight is is an area where people had great success, but then also, people who didn't dare to found a family, for example. but then also trivial things like, you know, Having some ongoing conflicts with your partner and then finally understanding, oh, that's what's standing in the way of my, of my fulfilling my wishes. And that's standing in the way of your fulfilling your wishes. It's compatible. We didn't realize that we didn't communicate. It's compatible. So realizing to find integrative solutions, we have a study where we find that people are much better in negotiation to find what is good for you, but is also good for me. and they're more pro-social, emotion control, very important so that people reduce anxiety in romantic relationships. People corrupt their anger. And then even with respect to regret and resentment, which sometimes plague people. you get rid of these regrets, the resentment to other people, and you finally get in harmony again. So, the interpersonal potential is, is huge as is the, you know, achievement and, and fitness. But the interpersonal is probably the most moving when, when people suddenly understand, what they can do in order to relate to each other again, to get out of their little, um, corner and just sort of relate. And the nice thing is too, that when you change your behavior, then other people change their behavior too. So it is, That you really have an impact by using woop, not only on yourself, but also on other people. So, um, and it's a discovery tour. I mean, even if when you do woop for five minutes or something and you understand where you really want to go, what makes you tick, that's a discovery. It's like, wow, I didn't know that I really want to go this way. I always thought I want to go the other way. And then with the obstacle, what that stands in the way, I have resentment, I have envy, I have anger. Hmm, interesting. So you understand much better what is actually going on in you and in your life. And then you can act on it. And then you can also sort of say, okay, I face it now. By facing it, you already have overcome it, almost

Cody: 1:19:43

And as we conclude our conversation, do you have any final words of wisdom or encouragement that you have for our listeners who are embarking on their journey of using the woop method.

Gabriele: 1:19:55

enjoy it, have fun with it. approach it with a little bit of humor.'cause sometimes it's not so flattering. And, if you want take a woop buddy with you, you need to trust your woop body. But then you can actually, communicate about your woop experiences, which is fun. first use it with respect to your own person. Get familiar with it, practice it, but be patient. It's non-evaluative. You don't need to evaluate it's just. Finding your wish, thinking about the outcome, imagining the outcome, getting clear on your obstacle, imagining the obstacle. And then if obstacle, then I will behave to overcome obstacle. So play with it, be patient, tag it to a habit so that you can do it every day. And if you have a question, let us know.

Cody: 1:21:07

Dr. Gabriel Oettingen thank you for joining us today.

Gabriele: 1:21:11

Thank you for having me.