Emily: 0:00

If you find yourself as an expert who is firmly committed, looking forward to the future on what you have left to do is more motivating than on what you have accomplished in the past. And the reverse is true for those people who are new to a space or who aren't personally invested in this. Looking back on the past is a greater source of motivation and strength. Now, why is that?

Cody: 0:33

We're honored to welcome Dr. Emily Balcetis, an associate professor of psychology at New York University. Emily, who's well known for her work in social and cognitive psychology. She's famous for her Why Some People Find Exercise Harder Than Others TED Talk. And has also done extensive research in perception, motivation, goal setting, and decision making. Emily's groundbreaking research doesn't just skim the surface. It delves deep into the understanding of our mental states and motivations, and fundamentally how they become altered as we perceive and react to our surroundings. She's an advocate on how our emotional and motivational states can constrain or empower our perceptions, essentially shaping our actions and decisions. This unique approach has opened new avenues in the field to judgment, decision making, social cognition, and perception. She's also the author of the transformative book, Clear, Closer, Better, How Successful People See the World. Which provides insights into leveraging perception for success. Her work has also been impactful. She's been featured in conversations with Andrew Huberman on the Huberman lab podcast. Not only that, her insights have caught the attention of prestigious platforms like psychology today and good morning America, amplifying the reach of her pioneering theories. We have a lot to cover. So without further ado, let's dive into today's episode. Emily, thanks for being on the podcast.

Emily: 2:08

Thanks for having me.

Cody: 2:11

So I loved your book and it really opened my eyes as to just how important perception is in pretty much anything we do. It can make something easy or hard, pleasurable or painful. So you've done a lot of research in relation to perception and goal setting and motivation. Could you break down some of the core findings?

Emily: 2:35

Sure. you mentioned, how impactful our perception, uh, and perceptual capabilities within sight are. And, um, that really resonates with me and it resonates with a lot of people. one time we did a survey of, you know, 500 individuals and we asked them, like, if there was, if you lost one of your senses, which is the one you just know you couldn't live without? And overwhelmingly, people say sight, I can't live without being able to see. Of course, many people do live without being able to see, but just sort of at the core of it, we, we really believe that so much of our life is dependent on what our eyes are doing. That I think probably resonates with most people, but what might not resonate with most people is that what we're seeing oftentimes does not reflect, um, the world that is actually around us in totality or with accuracy. Sometimes we're seeing what's not really there, and all of the times there are things that we are missing. that's just a biological fact based on how our eyes are constructed, how our biology is. The physiology of our bodies means that we're always missing something and yet we rarely realize it. we rarely realize that our experience of the world is subjective and that somebody else might be seeing something different. We're often times not thinking about all of the stuff that we're not seeing. When we're paying attention to the things that we are seeing. So there's a lot of, idiosyncrasies in what we're picking up on, even when we all believe that it's the most important thing that our body is doing right now,

Cody: 4:08

And so how do some of these perceptions influence our motivation to take action or lack thereof?

Emily: 4:16

there's a fundamental connection between what we see and what we do. We can think about, your commute back home, whether you're driving, you take public transportation or you're walking. if we're doing the same thing day in, day out, we're probably not aware of. Of the choices that we're making. To turn left at this stop sign. To make sure that we take this shortcut if we're walking home. Those are things that just ha happen automatically. And we don't have to consciously think about that. Make a decision. Deliberate. Whether I should turn left or I should turn right. We just do it. And then we end up at home and maybe our mind has wandered and for most of that time we weren't even a aware of the fact that we were driving. Or that we were walking. Or that we were on a bike or something like that. and that, and how is that possible? How is it possible that I have like no real memory for the thing that I just spent the last 20 minutes doing? and that's because of that tight connection between what we see and what we do. We don't need to think, should I turn left or turn right when we hit this particular intersection that we've come across 500 times, 1, 000 times. Because our eyes are telling our body what we need to do. And that's true in so many, areas of our life. That connection between what we're seeing and what we're doing. So it's, so that probably resonates with a lot of people and makes sense. So then it's not really that much of a step to say if what we're seeing predicts what we're doing, it might also predict what we want. to be doing, or what we don't want to be doing, that we might be having a reaction to what we're seeing that could be related to motivation. So that's the building blocks for our thinking, that there's this coupling between what we're seeing, what we want to do, what we think we should do, and what we actually do.

Cody: 5:54

And so a lot of what you, what we do in those situations, those become subconscious ingrained habits. And so is there, so if we get stuck into a particular habit or state of being. And say we, we constantly seem to accidentally turn left and we end up always making that wrong decision. And then we feel the sense of guilt or self loathing. How can we change those habits and those kind of default decisions that end up creating this subconscious layer that's really hard to, to change.

Emily: 6:31

If we wanted to get concrete about it, you know, I think an example that can resonate with a lot of people is snacking and how do we snack? Especially when we're at home. We just had a couple years at home with COVID working at home. Maybe there's still some days that we work remotely and we're in our like natural habitat, right? Our apartment or our house that we live in and snacking can be a problem. That's part of the reason why the COVID 19 COVID 19 led to an increase of about 15 to 20 pounds on average for most people. and it's because it's it's it's in part because of what we're eating and a lack of ability to exercise So, you know think about how your kitchen is laid out what's in your fridge What's in snack drawers or in your pantry and you might have stuff in there. That's like treats Right? We had definitely have a drawer. That's all treats. Also, we have many drawers that are all treats. And these are things that like we know we shouldn't be eating with every meal. Probably things we shouldn't be eating every day and we should hold it for special occasions. And that's why maybe we even keep them in our house in the first place. It's special occasion chocolate. It's, it's Friday night ice cream or something like that. But we find ourselves snacking on that chocolate and eating that ice cream more than what our original plan was. Why is that? Again, coming back to this coupling between what we see and what we do. If we're just going in for a snack in the middle of the day, we have other things on our mind, we might not be consciously and effortfully thinking about what's my goal. My goal is to eat healthy and to have a, have a fit life, so what does that mean? It means that I shouldn't eat that snack. We just open the door, we look for what looks good right now, and Pull that special occasion chocolate, um, off the shelf or pull the ice cream out and take a couple bites and then take a couple more bites because it's open and it's right there. So what we're seeing in our pantry predicts what we're doing, which is maybe discordant or doesn't align with the things that we actually want to be doing. Eating the carrots instead of the ice cream. So what can we do if we find that, upon reflection, this is what's happening, that we're making choices, maybe not really, uh, with a lot of awareness or intention about it, that don't align with the goals that we have? Let's take a moment to pause. And do a sort of visual 360 of what's in our environment. Have we set ourselves up for failure or for obstacles or made temptations easier to see, and can we do something about that? So. We have two kids, two young kids. They need snacks. The seven year old gets his own snacks. and they are snacks that I want to eat, but I shouldn't be eating. So we try to put them in a low drawer. So that it's not at my eye level, it's at his eye and hand level. They're snacks that he can have, but ones that I, that I don't really want. Want to be tempted by. So that's one approach. another idea is like when I want my, when my husband's making dinner for the kids and I'm the one that's out of the house, I just make sure that that broccoli is in the front row of the food and not buried in the back. Like, um, is usually the case, right? It's not in the drawers where you can't see anything. It's gonna be right at a higher shelf at his eye level. so that's one way that we might find ourselves concretely, like making choices. On habit that in retrospect aren't what we actually want to be doing. It might be that we've set up our environment in a way that's nudging us. To do things that ultimately we don't want to do there's like a classic example of this with Google You know Google is of course famous for the free food and the snack stations. It has everywhere at everyone's disposal And when they first started that um You know that that perk of they were realizing that they were doing a disservice to their employees health They were gaining weight because every time that they were walking in between meetings or heading off to the restroom They're passing a snack station and would grab something along the way So what they did was like, essentially following in this advice was that they didn't change. They didn't take the snacks away because, you know, that would be. That would be devastating, uh, and go against the brand. Um, but they just made the unhealthy snacks harder to see. They put them in opaque containers rather than clear glass containers. They put water on the fridge shelves, higher up, and put the sodas, the sugary beverages, lower down. And they asked... the snack room attendance, what needed to be restocked and how much after they made that change. and they noticed a dramatic decrease in the amount of, junk food snacks that people were taking along the way. They were still there, they were just as available, just as free for the taking, but because they were harder to see, they were less likely to be sort of, automatically picked up for snacking.

Cody: 11:01

So in general, the, the more we can. Remove items that are temptations, so to speak, out of our line of perception out of our sight, then we're less likely to even know that they're there and therefore less likely to consume that as something that is going to make us feel bad or is not really in line with our long term goals.

Emily: 11:27

Totally, especially when we're talking about things that we're doing automatically, right? So, if they're still there, we're not saying, you're not going to trick yourself into like, not looking for them if you are really wanting to find them, or that somehow you're going to be able to compartmentalize. I know I put them over here, but like, tomorrow's brain isn't going to remember that. No, that's not how our brains work. But a lot of what we do happens automatically. So the snacks we choose when we're not really... intentionally thinking about our higher level goal and our relative, you know, calorie consumption for the day and what we anticipate moving forward. So, so can I fit this into my calorie allotment for the day? Like, we don't think that deeply about a lot of choices that we make. But when we set up our visual environment in a way that sort of encourages or nudges, um, us in one direction or another, it might be the thing that's prompting us. You know, when we're not really thinking deeply about our higher level goals to make choices that we ultimately aren't proud of.

Cody: 12:22

So I know that there, there's a book and I'm, I'm blanking on the book, but it was research done by another psychologist that explored mindful eating. And she wrote a book on this topic that is really examining the mindful effects around food. And I think we all know that maybe you try and stop when you're 80 percent full or when you eat slower because it takes time for our brain to get the information that we're already full. Okay. And so if one option is that we end up snacking automatically. What is the key to either? Is it is it to meditate? Is it some kind of mindfulness practice? Because we end up going in the pantry and say, I'm aware that there is some snack in here and say, I hid it on the top shelf and I have to get a ladder to go and get it. if we are desperate, we will go get that ladder and we will get that snack. And it depends, I guess, how our hormones and our biochemical structure is made up. And if we're stressed, depending on the amount of effort we're willing to exert to go against our long term goals. So what is the key when we know something's there and despite having it be hidden or hard to reach, we still know it's there and we still want it.

Emily: 13:41

Yeah, well, a lot of work on goals has found that when you try to just to cut out the temptation entirely, that that can backfire. There's the so what effect or what the hell effect that, you know, you know, you've said like, I'm never going to eat this thing again. I'm never going to drink this again. I'm never going to do X again. But it's something that you like when you cut it out entirely. That's where cravings can come from. and then people overindulge, right? If it's been a long time and you've had this like, like, I, I, you know, you are dead to me kind of mentality, then it can backfire because it becomes even more the forbidden fruit. And so when there's a chance to get it, then we overindulge and like, what the hell? If I've already, burned my streak here, might as well go all in. And so trying to cut out things entirely oftentimes doesn't work. If you go from I want it, I love it, to I'm never going to have it again. That's just such a big, uh, jump to make that it oftentimes isn't effective. So when I'm talking about think. Effort or think conscientiously about how you stock your pantry or where you put things in your fridge It can do a lot of the work so that for those times when it could go either way, you know You're not hell bent on finding that that Hershey's chocolate bar, but it's just you're looking for something that the first something that you see is something that you So in advance have already decided aligns with what you would like to be doing instead. so my advice to your question, is recognizing going from like a hundred to zero is probably not going to work. Cutting out things entirely is probably not going to work because Cravings are a real thing and they can be super strong. But for a lot of the times that we're making choices, that intense craving might not be there. And we're just looking for inspiration when we open the fridge door or the pantry door. And so why not inspire ourselves, to make choices that are the ones that ultimately out of the heat of the moment want to be making. We can think about other examples too besides eating, like, what do you have at the foot of your bed? Do you have slippers at the foot of your bed or do you have your running shoes at the foot of your bed? If you're, if, if running more, exercising more, especially when you first wake up is important to you, maybe swap out the slippers for the running shoes. So it's, it's a little bit harder to get back into the relaxation or to stay in that relaxation mode and you've given yourself a visual reminder of what it is that you would like yourself to be doing in the morning.

Cody: 16:09

so there's, there's a lot of research and in regards to habit building and say, going to the gym, say, put on your clothes, put on your gym clothes, because it lowers the barrier, the obstacles to actually get yourself to go to the gym. And then you might say, Okay, I'm able to go to the gym. I'm only going to run for 5 5 10 minutes on a treadmill, or I'm only going to walk, you know, as as a bare minimum, and we can tell ourselves that. And then maybe that can get us to go to the gym because we're kind of tricking our brain, so to speak, that we're not really going to have to exert that much effort. But then oftentimes we go to the gym and we do way more than the minimum. And I found an interesting phenomenon, at least with myself, where if I say I'm not really feeling motivated, I'm just going to go and walk on the treadmill for five or ten minutes. But then after a while, my brain starts to know that I'm lying to myself. It knows I'm going to not just walk on the treadmill for five to 10 minutes because it feels like that would be a waste of time. And then it actually makes it more difficult to go to the gym. I'm just wondering whether you have any research or thoughts around this perception in terms of how can we be able to use certain techniques like having Our shoes be next to our bed or setting just small goals that we increase on a regular basis, but in a way where our subconscious or our mind still is able to, to trust the, the goal that we're setting, even if it feels like it's, you know, it's not going to the gym for a full 60 minutes and working out.

Emily: 17:44

so there's, um, a lot of research about level of difficulty, what's the level of difficulty that we should set the goal. So it is not for me to say seven minutes on the treadmill is what you should be saying to yourself, because for any one person, the right level of difficulty is idiosyncratic and it's going to change over time. The more you practice something, the easier any particular goal may become. So it is something that you need to figure out for yourself and for something that you need. You need to revisit, periodically, to see if you need to reset what that sort of micro goal should be. But that general sentiment of what you said, it totally resonates, and research supports. That we can think about what is most motivating for us, and and there might be a couple of examples that come to mind. You can think about New Years resolutions. Oftentimes, New Years resolutions are one where we shoot the moon, and we say, Alright, New Year, New me! New year, new body, I'm dropping 50 pounds this year. Or something to that effect. Even though I've never dropped 50 pounds before. And I've only ever been successful at losing 3 or 4 pounds. Like, but 50 pounds this year? Like, that's what I'm doing. Okay, that is a goal that is set at probably a level of difficulty that is impossible to achieve. the other thing is when people set those kinds of goals, they, they think like, you know, I'm all in on this. This thing really matters to me and look at how much I'm going to accomplish. And then. The progress that they make doesn't seem commensurate with this big, lofty goal that they've just set for themselves. The progress is incremental and small, the goal is large, and it just seems like, I'm never gonna hit it, and so they throw in the towel earlier, usually by around Valentine's Day. Most people have dropped their New Year's resolutions by Valentine's Day. Often for these reasons. They've set a goal that is impossibly challenging, and the rate of progress is just, not exciting. So, then people might say, well I'm going to go the opposite then. I'm going to set a small goal and I'm going to trick myself so that I, I know I can hit this small goal, I'm going to hit this small goal, then I'll reset that small goal and that's what's going to keep me going because like, look at how many gold stars I get to give myself. that's how I'm going to motivate myself. I'm going to set a goal to lose one pound a month and that's going to keep me going. But, you know, we don't, we, we aren't able to self deceive at that level. Because we are well aware that we've set a goal. That we know we can achieve, and in fact isn't really that exciting to try to pursue. So setting a goal that's too easy also backfires. So, like Goldilocks, we need to find the level of difficulty that's just right. We need to find the one that's set in the middle, that like, maybe pushes us beyond the bounds of what we think is possible, but not into the realm of like, this is really unachievable for almost anybody, to accomplish. What happens when we set goals at these different level of difficulties is that our physiology and our motivational states change. So, when you set a goal, that's, um, so one way that colleagues of mine have studied this is looking at, systolic blood pressure. Blood pressure readings have two numbers, right? The top number, the bottom number. The top number is systolic blood pressure. What psychologists know, behavioral scientists know, is that number, systolic blood pressure, is an indicator of, of our physiological preparation for action. Systolic blood pressure goes up, in particular, right before we're about to do something. They've measured this in horses that are about to race in competition, like, you know, at the derbies or whatever. I don't follow horse racing, but I follow the research on, on horse racing. And they found that for horses that are in the stalls before the doors open, they're confined. They actually can't do much movement except some little jitters, right? Their systolic blood pressure shoots up in advance of those gates opening. Systolic blood pressure also goes up in people, right before they're about to do something physical. But it also goes up right before doing something that would be mentally challenging, like hard math problems. We're gonna sit there, we're gonna look at a piece of paper, maybe move a pencil a little bit. But just like those racing horses, before the gates open, systolic blood pressure goes up in the anticipation of exerting cognitive effort, not even physiological effort. So... Systolic blood pressure, a body's indicator of, of like, motivational engagement, being all in it, I'm about to do something big. What they found in the context of this, goal level difficulty consideration is that systolic blood pressure actually stays pretty low when we set goals that are too easy. When we try to use that strategy of tricking ourselves in some way to meet a goal that we already know we can do, systolic blood pressure stays low. Our body is saying, You don't need me here. I already know you got this. I don't need to double down or give you more effort and energy to be able to accomplish this. Just because this is like a cakewalk for you. Systolic blood pressure also stays low when we set goals that are too challenging. When they're in that impossible category. When our minds think, oh my god, this is huge. Systolic blood pressure stays low. Because our body is saying like, no way, you don't have the resources to do this. Your body is giving up before it's even started. Because our mental appraisal is one that's like, I don't even know how we would do this kind of thing. Systolic blood pressure goes up when you are, like Goldilocks, finding that sweet spot of where it's just beyond what you know yourself is capable of, but it's within the realm of possibility. You're thinking like, Oh, if I could do this, it would be awesome. It would push me. It would help me grow just a little bit. Let's try for it. And that's when our body harnesses the energy that it needs to get its job done.

Cody: 23:20

Is there any relationship between. The reasons why we might have a goal. I think there's certain people may want to have a six pack, but that's predicated off of, say, Instagram and seeing what other people want, but then we might just want to be healthy. And so we might want to eat healthier, not for reasons of society, but we might want to eat healthier because we want to live long enough to see our grandchildren. And so there's different reasons and motivations that people might create for themselves in order to have a goal. And I'm wondering if there's any association between different types of motivations and how that can either help or hamper our ability to sustain motivation in the long run.

Emily: 24:04

Yeah, I just a couple days ago heard this really fascinating research talk by Dr. Anne Holding, and she was talking about this issue, about the source of our motivation. She was breaking it down between autonomous motivation and controlled motivation. Controlled motivation is more like that extrinsic, um, others are setting this goal for you or requiring that you do something, and that's powerful, right? A boss tells you you need to get this done, it's your boss, it's your job, but it's not your choice to do this thing. That can be a really powerful motivator, but we would call that a controlled source of motivation. Autonomous motivation is you're doing it because you really want to. Maybe you really want to please your boss. Maybe you really want to do a great job, in this job, and your boss is telling you how to do it. So you could take the very same activity, but have the motivational profile, be quite different from something that you are owning yourself to the other end of the spectrum, perhaps, where... somebody is imposing it on you. Or maybe it's a little bit of both. That's also possible. But what, uh, Anne Holding, Dr. Anne Holding, was explaining to us was that that autonomous motivation really is a great source of energy and support. When people, are driven toward to pursue goals because they are autonomously interested in them, they are more committed. They exert more effort. They can overcome obstacles. They experience less depression and anxiety. Over the pursuit of them. and, and it's really just a better place to, to find yourself. so again, the idea here is like the very, the very same thing that we're doing can be extrinsically or intrinsically controlled or autonomous. but if we want to try to find a source of motivation, it might be helpful to try to reflect on why am I doing this and finding those like personal, passions, I guess, that, that are driving your goals and your reasons for doing it so that you can push yourself more in that autonomous, source of motivation, to be more helpful.

Cody: 26:02

So then how do people perceive their goals as they get closer or whether it's a more achievable goal in terms of how does that affect their motivation?

Emily: 26:14

Yeah, these are options that people have. like, how are you seeing, how are you seeing your progress? And in some sense, you can literally look at that progress. here's a low level example, but like, you know, think of, There's a great, um, Blooming, I live in New York City, Bloomingdale's has the best frozen yogurt in the whole city. I mean, it's kind of funny, like, you know, Bloomingdale's is not necessarily known for it's frozen yogurt, but it's amazing. And there's a punch card, right? There's punch cards at lots of places. Every time we go in and we get our, our plain frozen yogurt with Melba sauce, we get a punch on our card. After ten punches... I'm not sure what, I think we get a free one, but we always are losing our cards. So we never, we never quite get to whatever that end is. But like punch cards are something that people can resonate with, like frequent visitor punch cards. And you can think about that, as a external monitor of your progress. How close are you to getting that free ice cream from, from Bloomingdale's? Now what they have found in this context, but in other contexts as well, not just shopping for ice cream. is that, you can look back, how many punches have I achieved, or you can look forward. How many more times do I need to visit the store before I get the reward? Or, how many times do I need to do this behavior before there's going to be some kind of payoff? Looking back to the past on your accomplishments, or looking forward to the future on what you have left to do. Now, you can think for a second of like, what will work for me? What has worked for me? What's more motivating? To look at what I've accomplished, or to look at what I need to do to finish job? Neither of those is necessarily right or wrong. It depends on some other factor. And that's, how committed are you to this? How committed are you to getting that free ice cream? How committed are you to X to whatever it is activity that you're pursuing. Is this something you are autonomously interested in that you are yourself personally passionate about and committed to, that you have a lot of expertise in that you are like firmly invested in this space? Or is it something, a space that you're new to? And maybe you aren't personally interested in this, but it might be, uh, more extrinsically asked of you or from a controlled source of motivation. That's the important distinguisher here. If you find yourself as an expert who is firmly committed, looking forward to the future on what you have left to do is more motivating than on what you have accomplished in the past. And the reverse is true for those people who are new to a space or who aren't personally invested in this. Looking back on the past is a greater source of motivation and strength. Now, why is that? Well, for those things that we aren't personally passionate about, that we might be new to exploring, looking back on our past successes back, It sort of is a signal that, like, you can do this, and in fact you have done it. And sunk costs is a thing. The more you do something, the more you believe that this is a thing that's important for you to do. So that's how that is a source of motivation. For those that are experts in a particular area or firmly committed, it doesn't really work as well to look back on your past because, like, you already knew you could do the early stuff, the introductory level stuff. For me to feel excited, I need to be able to close that gap between where I am now and, and what the goal is. And that's the source of motivation, is wanting to be a finisher, you know, to be a closer, and to close that deal. And so you get greater sorts of... source of energization by looking at what you have left to do when you're an expert and or really committed to this activity.

Cody: 29:36

So I'm not sure if you're able to conceptualize this, but say I say I heard from somebody that Bloomingdale had the best ice cream in New York City, and then I felt this level of excitement within me that, you know what? I really want to try that ice cream. She made it sound amazing. So then I get in the car. I go to Bloomingdale, but then I see there is a huge line To get that ice cream. And then I, I reason I say to myself, I, I just, I, I can't, I can't do this. I'm not, I'm not gonna wait in that line. And so there's different stages of motivation that we might have that might be driven, say, by excitement. And that excitement might dissipate the moment we see any amount of pain or effort, or exertion that we have in order to achieve that goal. Is there any way that we can influence our perception? Of how close we might feel towards a goal in order to help sustain the motivation of kind of waiting it out.

Emily: 30:34

yes. So, let's put this into the context of exercise rather than, uh, where the best ice cream is. Is it really Bloomingdale's or is it Morgenstern's or is it Van Leeuwen? There's lots of options in New York. I invite you to come visit and try them all out and decide for yourself which one is worth standing in line for because people stand in line for all of them. I had a chance to work with Olympic runners some of the fastest. They happen to be men, in the world that, you know, some of these guys had won gold medals in, in the 400 Sprint. one of 'em was the fastest guy outta Trinidad. And, like incredible people, super humble, and amazing athletes. Now, I went into this opportunity thinking, like, there's gotta be something, like, really incredible about what their eyes are doing. They have, like, a super sense of sight, um, and it's probably, it's quite different, I'm sure, than how my eyes work. That was sort of my guiding thought as I went into, to this, experience chatting with them and having them do some of our surveys. I went in thinking, you know, they probably are like, you know, like owls that they can see all around them. They constantly know, like, where's their finish line, where's the competition relative to where they are in space, like, as if they have eyes on the back of their head, these superpowers of perception. They, they can keep that map of, of everybody and everything that's in their environment. So I, you know, we surveyed them and, and asked about their perceptual experiences, and I couldn't have been more wrong. They told me that's not at all what they do when they're competing, when they're competing at their best. And what works best is to have more of a narrowed focus of attention. As if there's blinders on them and they're just focused on what their goal is. It could be the finish line, it could be the next bend, um, in the track up ahead. But they choose these points and focus just on those points. Once they hit it, they set the next. like micro goal, and are really like lasered in, honed in, narrowly focused on that particular spot. Not paying attention at all to the people that are around them. And that resonates with other people that I didn't have the chance to talk with at all. You know, Jen Joan Binwa Samuelson, one of the fastest female runners, to ever compete in in marathons, said the same thing. I choose a person with, you know, pink shorts up ahead of me, and I feel like Focus on those pink shorts until I pass the pink shorts, and then I set the next goal, right? So it's not just a guy thing. This is something that resonates with some of the best female athletes as well. and so because that was totally different than what I thought would be the case I wondered like is this something I can teach other people who might also not know this Totally because as I was describing this I'm sure you could imagine what that experience would be like It's not really hard instructions to give they're not really hard instructions to follow but what was amazing is that when we taught this to people who were not Olympic level runners, what we found was that we induced a visual illusion by telling them to imagine a spotlight is shining just on this finish line, narrow your focus of attention, don't pay attention to what's in your periphery. The visual illusion that they experienced was that that finish line literally looked closer to them, depending on how we measured it, it appeared 20 to 30 percent closer than those people who looked around the world as they naturally would. Naturally being something more like I was describing before, what I thought the runners would do. Pay attention to what's on the periphery, look all around you, being aware of what's in the surroundings. That's natural. That narrowed focus of attention though induces illusion of proximity. It looks like I'm closer to the end. That Bloomingdale's frozen yogurt line doesn't look as far or as long as it does now. Um, and then inducing that visual illusion of proximity had a whole cascading effect on their motivation and their performance. Now when we ask them, do you think you're going to be able to make it to that end state? They said, yes, I have a greater sense of self efficacy. The task is not as difficult, it's not as challenging. I believe I have the resources that it's going to take to do this really well, to get there quickly. That's, all, those are all different indicators of motivation. Their motivation on all these different markers increased. Now, what happens when they have more motivation? That was tied to that visual illusion, which was tied to that narrowed attention instructions. They moved faster. They moved 23 percent faster. When we timed them, how quickly could they do this exercise and make it to the finish line? Even though it's exactly the same distance and exactly the same level of difficulty, the people who had that narrowed focus of attention, the illusion of proximity and the motivational burst, were able to get there faster. When we teach people this and then let them out into the wild and then just look at their fitness tracking apps, what did they do? even in the days that followed when we're not there to be, you know, reminding them or encouraging them or teaching them or measuring them ourselves, they go out for more runs and more walks. they take about 85 percent more steps in each of those walks. They're moving faster, and more efficiently, which is a better form of exercise because increasing intensity is a really important component of fitness, and we should be working towards.

Cody: 35:32

And so in the, in a case of say running, are you telling participants to look at some distant point in the future and just focus with a narrow frame of perspective only on that specific item?

Emily: 35:46

Yeah, but we mean it like literally. So you mentioned time. Time is another form of distance. You know, like 15 years in the future as time feels really far away. But in this case, we mean like literally. Choose a stop sign up ahead. Choose, choose the next building that looks really interesting and focus your eye gaze on that. We find also that people who live in neighborhoods where they self report that there's more visually interesting things there, those people that have something that they can focus their gaze on, they exercise more frequently and they're in better physical health, right? So we mean visually. Find something that catches your eye because that's going to encourage more exercise and more efficient exercise. The caveat, though, is that it can be tiring because it's not natural. That's not the way that people naturally orient to the world, and it's not necessarily what people think will work. Because oftentimes people think, if I want to go farther, go faster, I need to distract myself so that I'm not, like, tuned in to my body hurting. But we find that that isn't. As effective, um, to, to use distraction the entire time that you're exercising. A hybrid approach is better. At the beginning of a run, we should be looking more, expansively, with a broader focus of attention. And better runners do that than people who are less experienced or who don't run as, fast, uh, at a slower pace. So at the beginning, have a wider focus of attention that as your run goes on, then you became more hyper focused. Choosing a target, focusing on it till you get it, and it's resetting the, the target until you pass that, and so on. So people who run faster, who have more experience running, and are more competitive at it, use that, like, honing in narrowed strategy over the course of time. To a stronger degree than people who have less experience or who aren't as fast.

Cody: 37:32

And so I have a headband that measures the amount of oxygen that enters my prefrontal cortex. It's called Mendi. And the goal is that you look at an app, you look at a circle, and then it measures the amount of oxygen that, through the sensors on your prefrontal cortex, and then gives you a score. And there seems to be some, at least preliminary research, around looking at a specific object. and its ability to increase your attention throughout other areas in your life. So have you explored any of this research on how, say, even looking at an object for 30, 60, 90 seconds plus can increase your attention or focus, even motivation towards achieving goals in other areas of life?

Emily: 38:17

Well, I haven't done this research and I haven't looked into it too much, but what you're talking about is also a form of biofeedback and that's been around, for a very long time. It's not, it's an, it's not a new technology or approach to use that when we find ways to gain information about what the inside of our body is doing and relate that to what the outside of our body is doing, that we can do amazing stuff. We have the power to change a lot about our body that might otherwise feel like. Oh, it's going to do what it's got to do. I can't direct oxygen to my prefrontal cortex or I can't do anything to change my blood pressure right now just by thinking I want to change my blood pressure. But you can, like you're reporting on that experience, Cody, about, this mindful approach, and being able to, to change something that's happening on the inside of your body that might feel like otherwise a black box. and therapists have used this approach of, uh, biofeedback, a lot for. For decades, for, you know, 50, 60 years. I, I have wondered about this myself. I, I, um, I wonder if my blood pressure is as, good as the doctors tell me it is because, I get nervous going to the doctor and I also know that they're going to take my blood pressure and so, you know, right before those moments I get mindful. It's almost as if I go into a meditative state. I try to breathe deeply, take in a lot of oxygen and calm myself down. I've been doing this for a long time and so I'm, aware of what my heartbeat is doing. I'm aware of what is happening and I can feel it slowing down. They take my blood pressure and they're like, Oh my God, it's like remarkably low. Congratulations. You must be a runner. No, I'm, I wish I was, but I've got a one year old and a six year old. I haven't gotten to be a runner for a long time. but that is, I think another example that probably people can relate to, or if anybody practices mindful breathing or they practice meditation, that's exactly the point of this. the headband that you're wearing is a way to give you that kind of feedback that, is really cool. It's not, it's not necessary for everybody though, because you can have that experience and be in control of that experience and feel it in your body as well. I, you know, I, I think that's a cool example about how we have so much more control, that mind body connection is much greater than, than people realize. But it's certainly there and it's certainly really fun to play with.

Cody: 40:28

That kind of ties into this idea of unconscious awareness of what your body's doing. I believe it's called proprioception in terms of our ability to see our positions of our body parts, our ability to notice what's happening within our body. Have you seen or are aware of any research in terms of people who have a higher level of proprioception and their ability to either sustain motivation or focus on something?

Emily: 40:57

I know that work is out there. I'm not that familiar with it, but you're totally right that it is an individual difference. Some people have high proprioceptive abilities or lower proprioceptive abilities, but that's also malleable. You can teach yourself and train yourself. So it's not like you're just born able to tune in to what your heart is doing or what your blood oxygen levels are doing. that's not the case. You can train yourself to become more aware. And that's also what, hypnosis can do or what biofeedback or what that band that you're wearing on your forehead can do is help you train your, your abilities, in, in that area. you know, I had a really interesting experience one time. I was just sharing this story with a friend, so it's top of my mind. But, you know, when I was in college, I went on a spring break trip with, you know, I studied music and psychology, but I went with a group of geologists. to the Sonoran desert in, in Arizona, like such an incredible place. I'm sure a lot of your listeners already live there and know how beautiful it is. It was my first time of getting to experience that kind of beauty. they were talking about the rocks and the different layers and what it tells you about the construction of our earth. One, Opportunity we had though was to go like exploring a cave. It was a crystal It was a quartz cave while quartz crystals have been growing in this cave And you had to have a key to get in and you had to have picked that up at a town That was three hours away from where the cave was so it hadn't been, you know, super well explored It wasn't like the national park service had set up a tour for you. But if you happen to know and Our, guide on this trip did know that, picked up the key and we went exploring in this area, in this cave. It was incredible. You know, you're climbing all over, some of these crystals are so large that, you're just squeezing yourself through. And I completely was disoriented in terms of like, well, which way is up and which way is out? And where did we come and where did we go? And thank God it was with other people because I would have been lost in there and we would never have been able to have this call. But the only way that I could figure out and get my bearings was like feeling gravity and having to get tuned into my body in that moment of like, which way is the earth trying to pull me right now to know which way is down because nothing about my geography right now is giving me those kinds of clues. So I do have that vivid memory of like, in this moment, I need to get become a super proprioceptor right now until I figure out how to keep myself safe and get out of here.

Cody: 43:07

And so I know with your research, you've done a lot of research into perception and visual eyesight. I'm wondering if you've done any research on any of our other senses. I know that there's there was recently a study released on dementia and how we can have less likelihood of it. of having dementia, if we end up having some kind of smell, like say, say we wake up to like a lavender scent or just some, some kind of various scent. And I know that there can be associations between, say, a physical touch or something that we smell You know, if you ever walk in the mall and then you smell those pretzels, and if you've, if you've had some great experiences, remembering those pretzels, it makes you crave those pretzels. And of course, capitalism and many, many companies kind of, take advantage of that effect. Have you looked at any of our senses and their effects on our attention or motivation and any ideas on how we can take these other senses that we have and apply it towards, say, helping to achieve a goal.

Emily: 44:08

Yeah. So I know research in this area and you're right that there's some pretty remarkable and amazing stuff that is out there. Just something that, I encourage all of your listeners to do is think, think about not just like, is this a thing that's true? Is what the science is telling me? Is it true science? But also how big of an effect is this science? So can smelling lavender, prevent Alzheimer's or dementia? Yeah. Maybe, maybe that's true. Somebody would really need to look into the science of that. But then also even if we know that it is true, how big of an effect is it? Meaning, how much lavender needs to get smelled? How many people was this impactful for? And I am quite certain that that was a very small effect. It doesn't mean that it's not true and it doesn't mean that it's not consequential, but it means that it's probably going to take a big injection of lavender over the course of a very long time and probably tied to some very special memories for that effect to be the case. So always be a critical consumer of the work, not with And it's not saying you need to be a naysayer and, disagree that this is true. It may or may not be true, but also thinking about how big of an effect is it, and is this something that is scalable, and if I wanted to prevent dementia, is this something that would actually be able to accomplish that for me? and that's what I'm wondering about, is how big of an effect is that? Now, that aside, I, you know, I totally resonate with the idea of, first of all, wanting to prevent dementia, prevent its onset. and then if that does happen, like, what gets through? Like, what gets through to people with dementia? And is it tied to anything that has to do with the other senses? I grew up with a grandmother who was in medicine, which made it really hard, when she developed dementia and eventually Alzheimer's because at this stage of the scientific understanding of these things, that it happened, she knew that she was developing dementia and Alzheimer's before there was even a diagnosis, ability to have it diagnosed, and before anybody had even. Surmise that that might be happening for her. So that's awful, right? So like know this is gonna happen to be in the medical community and know what this means for the course of your life And the people around you so she definitely had Alzheimer's and she had it for 17 years before she passed away That's a very long time to have dementia and Alzheimer's and the quality of her life It was awful. and it was really sad to see that. So, uh, again, like I mentioned, like, I studied music. That was a really, I, I have a degree in music performance. I've studied music, and music has been a part of my life for my entire life. So we would go visit her in, um, the nursing homes and care facilities that she was in, and we would always play music. You know, my sister played, my dad, my mom, my, my aunt, everybody is a musician. And we would go play for the people that were residents of these facilities. So even when my grandmother She couldn't stand, she couldn't walk, she couldn't hold herself in her wheelchair, and so they had to support her within the wheelchair. She certainly couldn't feed herself. We know what that life is like, and we know, how helpless people in these positions are. When we would play her wedding song, we would play Stardust, a classic jazz tune, she would cry and she would start to tap her feet in time with the music, even though there was literally nothing else that seemed from our perspective to be getting through or resonating with her. The power of music is that strong. It's not just that it's music or that it's the auditory sense. It's not just that, but it's that that particular sensory experience was tied to a very emotional memory for her, her wedding day, right? So those are the kinds of things that stick in our mind memory, especially for people with dementia. it's the older memories that often are the ones that are held on to for the most time before they too are lost to the disease. And it's those memories that are tied to something really beautiful, really impactful. And that's true for everybody. That's not just the case about, dementia, but we call that flashbulb memories, those things that. Those moments in time, events or experiences you've had that are connected to something that's really intense, an intense emotional experience. Those are the things that we have these sort of flashbulb experiences. It's as if you're, you're back in that moment again, reliving it doesn't necessarily mean everything about that memory is correct, but we have that sensation and that feeling that it is. and those are the memories that we often hold on to the longest.

Cody: 48:39

So I'm wondering on a slightly different topic in terms of cognitive restructuring, because often we end up having a goal, we have a desire, or we have to do something, whether it's something that we just know we have to do, but we don't really want to do. And our perception is that this is something that's either too easy or too hard, and it's something that we don't want to do. And when we have this perception, it makes it more difficult, it makes it more painful, to actually endure the activity of performing that task. I'm wondering if there's a way that we can restructure our cognitive perception of a task in a way to make it easier to accomplish.

Emily: 49:23

You know, one suggestion would be to think about the level of construal. How are we construing this? We have options. And the way that it plays out is that we can ask ourselves, okay, here's this thing that I'm doing. I'm brushing my teeth. let me take a different example. I do brush my teeth a lot. I don't want to go there with this one. Um, I am changing my one year old's diapers. Okay, why, why am I wiping poop right now? Why am I wiping poop? I'm wiping poop so I can keep her clean. Why am I trying to keep her clean? So I can keep her healthy. Why am I trying to keep her healthy? Because I hope that she develops into, like a pretty amazing human being. Why do I want her to develop into an amazing human being? So that I've left a mark in society that I can be really proud of. Oh my god, with like a couple questions of why, why, why, I've gone from I'm wiping poop to I want to leave a mark on society that I'm proud of. And it took a couple steps to get there, but that's an experience that we can all go through to try to connect something that's mundane that we don't like. No one likes wiping poop, right? Nobody likes doing that, but we all do it. Like, you have a pet, you've got a child, you're dealing with poop, okay? So. But how can I make that be something that I continue to do and find value in if that's the reason why I'm having a hard time sustaining it, right? The alternative is to ask yourself how. I'm wiping poop right now. I'm wiping my daughter's poop. How am I doing that? I'm getting a wipe out of the tub. I'm smearing it across her bum. Okay, well how am I doing that? Well I'm making sure that I don't touch the poop with my fingers so I'm kind of like wiping it around my hand or making sure I take two or three. Okay, how are you doing that? When you ask yourself, how, how, how, you get really in the weeds. It's very concrete. It's very detailed. And it's certainly not helping me find more meaning in this thing that I'm doing. It's not a source of motivation. It's not an inspiration to me. It's a different way of construing it. If you find yourself in this spot where you're doing something you don't actually like, you know, you have to do it. How do you motivate yourself? You ask yourself, why? Why am I doing this? Why, why, why? And of course you can play the game where you put yourself into a space where you don't want to be, but if you know, like, I gotta keep doing this thing, how am I gonna keep going and find the energy to keep going on this thing that I really don't like? I don't like wiping poop. You ask yourself why, and you can find yourself doubling down on doing it again and finding the source of motivation that you might need to keep going.

Cody: 51:39

Are there any other tools that we can put in our tool bag to resort to, to find that motivation to endure whatever amount of pain we're having to endure in order to achieve our goal?

Emily: 51:52

Yeah, well, another one is just taking time as we're getting ourselves, you know, we're excited about something. We've set a new goal. maybe we've planned out importantly. Hopefully we've planned out some of the steps that we can take to get from here to there. But the other thing that people often overlook is the importance of. In those goal planning moments for ourselves is foreshadowing obstacles. It's counterintuitive for some people because they think like, ah, I just decided what is it that I'm going to do with my life? And, and I've sort of set a plan in motion. That's going to be, that's going to be awesome. And they're jazzed up and they're all in. And I'm saying in those moments, you should start thinking about what's going to make it hard and what, what might make it impossible and not impossible, but what's going to be a real legitimate challenge that might be hard for you to overcome in the moment they might think, well, that's. Demotivating. That's not exciting. And I don't want to think about the 10 ways I'm going to fail when I just figured out what it is that I want to do. And yeah, I can understand how that might seem like. A downer, but what it is is creating that safety net for in the very likely chance that you experience a challenge along the way when we're challenged in those moments. We're often short on time. We're short on resources, either, our cognitive or emotional abilities to think through what's going to be a good course of action here. How should I pivot? But if we've done that hard work in advance, Then it's more likely that we can push through those obstacles when otherwise we might throw in the towel. So when we're in that goal planning stage, we also need to be foreshadowing challenges that we might experience and coming up with the solutions for ourselves in advance. And even if we don't move forward with those solutions where it's not the right way to pivot in this moment, we've already gotten that creative process going and we can, you know, make some smaller tweaks maybe. Maybe that's all it takes to get through. and it should be a source of motivation if we think about it as a safety net. It's the same reason why, you know, they point out where life jackets are on a boat if you happen to get on one or where the life jackets are on an airplane. It's that, hey, when things are going down, that's not the time to be getting this safety instruction. You want to be able to automatically know what is it that I need to do to keep myself safe and to move through this experience.

Cody: 53:56

so that reminded me of a German psychologist or professor. I think she's also at New York University who I interviewed just a few weeks ago, Gabrielle Oettingen,

Emily: 54:05

exactly. Yeah, that's her research. That's one of the take home messages of her work.

Cody: 54:10

Yeah, and I loved her book called, uh, Rethinking Positive Thinking, and she developed this technique over all of her years of research that she refers to as WOOP, uh, Wish, Outcome, Wish, Obstacle, Outcome, and Plan, or it might be, uh, Outcome and then Obstacle, and so does that play into what you're referring to about visualizing a, say, a if then scenario of if this bad thing happens, I'm going to do this instead?

Emily: 54:37

Yeah, that's something that you can do to help make sure that when you've gone through that hard work of figuring out, okay, this could happen if this happens. And this is what I might do instead. what you can add to that, then to make sure that you remember that is the if then statement. We call that, uh, Peter Gollwitzer calls that an implementation intention. If this happens, then that putting it into that conditionality can help make that habit or make that. That pairing automatic and more likely to happen. The other thing that I'll add to that is when you're making that if statement, if this thing happens, then I'll do this. This will be my pivot. Is to try to tie it to something visual, right? Because that, if you can set your environment up in a way that You will be triggered or reminded when, if this happens, then, then like, remember that, that this is what I want to do, put it in your space, then you're more likely to have that automatic behavior happen in the end. So the more that we can involve vision and try to take the cognitive effort out of any course of action, um, we've sort of offloaded, you know, we've offloaded some of our work to the environment and to our eyes and to our brain, to change our behavior.

Cody: 55:47

Are there any other visual exercises, whether it's a visualization that we can do that perhaps Gabrielle didn't mention that you have done or have research behind that can help us achieve our long term goals or sustain that motivation?

Emily: 56:02

yeah, sure. there's a great example. when I was writing my book, I had a chance to interview two really amazing women. They had been strangers to each other before they decided to embark on a really cool project. They call it Dear Data. You can check out their work. You can Google it and see what they've done. they are like in the graphic design space, in data space. They met each other at a really cool conference and said, you know, What we want to do is track what our life is. I want you to learn about my life in New York. I want you to learn about my life in London. And every week we're going to choose a different theme. Maybe it's about, uh, all the number of ways that people insult each other. So I'm going to be really on guard for the insults that I hear. And I'm going to keep track of that. I'm going to tell you how do people get insulted in London, how do they get insulted in New York. Or what kind of wildlife do you see in your city? How many rats do I see in New York? Besides rats, is there anything else to see? Cockroaches. Lovely, right? That's all wildlife is showing up in London. So it's like every moment of their day they're being mindful of something that they had agreed to be tracking and then what they did with that then is turned it into this beautiful piece of art. They put it on a postcard and they would draw things that looked, like a field of dandelions. But the height of the dandelion, the size of its flowering seeds, would be an indicator of something, like, like how many rats did I see, how often did I see the rats, in what context did I see the rats, and every single bit of their drawings for each other was information about, whatever they had been tracking that week, and then they gave each other a legend, they put a stamp on it, sent it in the mail, um, and they would send it to the other person, and they did this every day, For a week for 52 weeks for an entire year. And I was like, that's incredible. You people didn't even know each other. How did you accomplish this? and you know, one of the women, her perspective really resonated with me, which was like, it was hard. It was really hard. But what was the motivation for me was. That, on Tuesday, my postcard would show up, and she, you know, had a front door and one of those old fashioned, like, mail slots, and the postman would put the mail through, and the postcard would end up on her doormat, and she set her floor mat by her door. And she said, that was like a frame. Like, every Tuesday, I got this beautiful postcard framed, as if it was art, framed by my doormat. And, and that was the reminder of keep going, because look how much effort, she had put in for me, to create this. Like this museum in my front entryway, this piece of art. And that's what really got me thinking about framing and the power of framing. Of what, what do we put within our frame? What do we keep outside of our visual frame? Can we be more intentional about that and find it to be a source of support? So maybe that's a metaphor. The visual frame that can resonate with you and with your listeners is, is thinking about what can we frame up? What do we not want within our frame? and what kind of impact might that have on our lives?

Cody: 58:54

Yeah, I love the research that you've done on our perception and frame cognitive perspectives. Because it has so much of an impact on our motivation. And I think too few people actually think about that. I'm wondering, just as a final question, what's the most surprising thing that you discovered in your research that seemed to run counterintuitive to to the preconceived ideas that you had around what outcome that would be, whether in a study or just in your research in general?

Emily: 59:26

You know, I think what was surprising is just how powerful our own minds and bodies and eyes are. You can spend a lot of money investing in diet programs or in life coaches, and, you know, different, sources of inspiration or sources of information to help change your life in dramatic ways. but the more we learn about what we are capable of doing for ourselves, how we can train our brain and retrain our brain, how plastic our brain really is, movable and malleable it is, And how, how that malleability can be a function of what we're looking at. We realize that we have so much power within ourselves. And the more that we learn about how our brains and minds and bodies work, the more powerful we become. Those life coaches have an important role. I've had several of them. I value, them tremendously. But we also have a lot of potential to change our own lives the more we learn and invest in learning about how this whole thing works for us.

Cody: 1:00:25

And with that... I think I will. I will let you go. If you're interested in the show notes, we've linked to Dr. Emily Balcetis website and all of her books. And so if you're interested in learning further, please go and look at the show notes. Dr. Emily Balcetis, thank you for joining us.

Emily: 1:00:43

Thanks so much.