Neil: 0:00

a lot of times I think anxiety is your body's way of trying to give you a little bit of a hint that something's outta whack and you should pay attention to it. But what. Many of us do is we bury that with alcohol or, other things that numb

Codie: 0:32

Welcome to another episode of the Mind Hack podcast, where we dive deep into the minds of thought leaders, innovators and experts in human potential. I'm your host, Cody McLain, and today we're exploring a powerful and transformative journey that bridges the worlds of military service, corporate leadership, and cutting edge wellness practices. Our guest today is Neil Markey, the Co-founder and CEO of Beckley retreats, an organization that's pioneering the use of psychedelics in modern therapy. Neil's path is anything but conventional from serving as a captain in the US special operations to navigating the intense demands of corporate life at McKinsey and Co. To ultimately finding healing and purpose through mindfulness and psychedelics. today's episode, we'll discuss Neil's incredible journey, the groundbreaking work he's doing at Beckley Retreats, and the unique intersection of science, spirituality, and mental health. We'll explore how Neil's experiences have shaped his approach to wellbeing, the challenges and rewards of leading a mission-driven organization, and future of psychedelics and therapy. Whether you're curious about the potential of psychedelics, looking for insights on maintaining wellbeing in a high pressure world, or just interested in hearing from someone who's truly walked the walk, this episode is for you. So let's dive in and uncover the secrets to wellbeing with Neil Markey. Neil, welcome to the podcast,

Neil: 2:07

Thanks for having me, Cody.

Codie: 2:09

So I'd love to ask, you have such a fascinating story that you went from serving in the US Army Special Operations, which would love for you to even say what that is, and you went from that to mindfulness and psychedelics. can you share what catalyzed this incredible shift?

Neil: 2:28

um, it wasn't a straight line, um, but the short story is I, uh, joined the service. After 9/11 thinking I was doing the right thing. by the time I got through school and training and ended up at my unit and went to Iraq, we learned that the weapons of mass destruction narrative that the country was telling itself, was wildly wrong. so that was pretty challenging. and I, uh, yeah, was in. I was in Iraq in oh seven and then got a chance to go try out for this small special operations unit called the Ranger Regiment and went to Afghanistan twice with them. And, you know, I was fortunate. I didn't have near as bad of a series of deployments as a lot of guys for sure. Um, I had an infantry platoon in Iraq, but when I was in the Rangers, I was more of a support officer, so I was removed from the worst of it. But that unit, the entire unit had. Complex PTSD, and this was the guys that was doing the night raids. you know, and, uh, it was, uh, it was a brutal, a brutal few years. And I got out in 2012 and went to graduate school and by some measures was doing well professionally. I was at a good school. And that first year you're looking for summer internships and I was doing well and I was isolating and. Drinking too much alcohol and going through a breakup with my partner and, having a lot of mental health issues, many of which came from the transition out of the service. And I got introduced to meditation through this course at Columbia University. And then I, uh, had the chance to have some psychedelic experiences. And for me, it felt like those experiences in some way accelerated what I was trying to do with meditation. And that was in. 2012, I got out. And between then and now, it's been a windy journey in and out of the corporate world. And um, but now I feel like I'm really working on something that is in alignment with my values and I believe in, and I think we're helping people. And so I feel really, uh, really fortunate to have found something that, that lights me up.

Codie: 4:39

What was the motivating factor? if you came out of the army, you were lucky enough not to have, too many traumatic experiences, and then you went to school, and then you went to McKinsey of all places, which it seems like you went from one incredibly stressful environment to another.

Neil: 4:57

yeah.

Codie: 4:58

share what, was your reasoning? why did you take this path?

Neil: 5:01

probably quite a bit of ego. Um. I didn't know what McKinsey was when I got to grad school. It's just everyone else wanted to do it. And so then I started finding out more about it, and it was the, it was the, um, the sexy thing. And so I, uh, chased that and I, yeah, I, there's a bit of a pattern that I have, I think, of getting myself into kind of stressful environments. But at least I'm aware of it now. You know, before it was a little bit more mindless. you know, I'm grateful for all those, for all those experiences, but those are definitely between the Rangers and McKinsey, it's uh, it's hard to maintain positive mental health when you're living that way.

Codie: 5:49

Yeah, I've known many people who in college it seems it's still, you gotta work at one of the big five, and you gotta, you wanna make your parents proud. you go into that and then you just see what your existence is. Like, your whole world is evolving around this company. you're working way too many hours. you have no time for yourself. And it seems like there, I mean, even John Oliver did an episode on that a few months ago

Neil: 6:15

Oh, I know. I, yeah, it was, uh, it was good and bad. It stung. It's true.

Codie: 6:22

and so going from one. Environment to another. That was, stressful. I'm wondering if there's a linkage between, is there perhaps like an addiction or a tendency for those in society? If, you're in a stressful environment and then you get out of that, like, I can only imagine coming outta out of the military what it would feel like to go from that environment where you always have to be on, and now all of a sudden you have none of that stress. did you experience any side effects or symptoms that, perhaps, relegated your jump to working at McKinsey?

Neil: 6:56

so I got to grad school in 2012. Was struggling quite a bit. I had my first kind of entrepreneurial venture with my brother. We started a business together and, um, and, and I also, this is when I got into meditation and trying to learn different ways to take better care of myself. Um, and over the course of three years of school, I did a, a dual program. I actually ended up in a pretty good place, like much more peaceful, sleeping well. Positive not, you know, this was a lot of work. It took a lot of effort. and after grad school I ended up, being so interested in meditation that I went to Jefferson University and did a teacher certification and meditation and then was teaching meditation and working on this small business with my brother. And my mental health is great. It was probably the best I can remember it being, you know, from my childhood. Okay. But I had, I was deferring this job offer with McKinsey and Company, and basically I asked for another deferral to kick it another year down the road so I could keep kind of doing what I was doing. And McKinsey said, no, we're not gonna be your permanent backup plan. And so then I had a decision whether, it was like, go or don't go. Um, and I wanted to see behind the curtain, you know, people put this. Organization on such a pedestal. I was just, the curiosity killed me and I went there and I don't regret it. But after going there, then you realize, you know, then you're in it. And so is there, um, I, yeah, I think there's some truth to people. I mean, they've studied this a bit, you know, people that have, trauma in their past. End up in relationships and environments. Sometimes they can not be the most healthy for them. And there's some theories out there around why, I guess you could probably put me in that bucket. But I think it was also just a, an ego thing to some extent. You know? I mean, I went to the Rangers because it was what everybody thought was cool and hard, and I wanted to prove something to people and maybe myself too. And I think the same for McKinsey. I wanted to. Show people I was smart enough or good enough, or looking outside for validation, which I've learned over the years is not a particularly fruitful path, but sometimes it takes us longer to learn it. You know, it's taken me, I'd say I'm still learning it. I still have to correct for those tendencies, you know, haven't fully figured it out.

Codie: 9:31

Yeah. And I think that that's one of the most important things is to admit, you know, we will probably never have it figured out. and those that claim to are probably not the ones we want to turn to. your, your story, it reminds me a little bit of, my friend Matt Wilson, who's a co-founder of Under 30 Experiences, which he founded in 2012, when he went on a trip to Iceland and he was working as an investment banker in New York City. And he just realized how incredibly unhappy he was and that he wants to get out and see the world. And then he started this, under 30 traveling group to help others who can help them see the world as well. And it seems like you went from working at McKinsey to then going to, private equity.

Neil: 10:17

So I went into McKinsey doing pretty well. I was taking good care of myself. I had a pretty disciplined meditation practice. I was spending a lot of time in nature. I had been working on things that I would really was aligned with from a values perspective was around my family. Like all these things, pillars of wellness. I think I was doing a good job and well, then I got to McKinsey and, um, like most things in life, it's not black or white. Um. But, uh, I had a more challenging experience at McKinsey than, maybe some do. And, part of me loved it. It was so stimulating, right? And from a, for a lower middle class kid, from a small town in Maryland, to then all of a sudden be at this super prestigious place and staying at the Ritz Carlton, that was cool for a while. You know, I, it did give me a little dopamine bump for sure. I was pretty proud of that. But, um, over the course of a few years there, although I did well by the metrics that they have in terms of performance, my mental health started to slip. And, um, I think now maybe I could go back into an environment like that and I could. Have boundaries and I could stay centered. And I've, developed enough discipline around my habits that I think I could do it, but at that point, I just hadn't learned enough. I hadn't gotten strong enough. And you want to do well, and you're around all these other people that want to do really well, and it creates this hyper competitive environment that's almost like a frantic existence of who's gonna be outperform who. And, and so after a few years there, I was pretty unhappy. Right. You good in this cycle. You're not sleeping well. You're maybe, you know, using alcohol more than you should. Or people are taking different prescription drugs to get up in the morning and go to sleep at night. You know, I mean, the cycle that many are in. And so I was looking to leave McKinsey. but you know, there's some sayings around this. It's like you never wanna run away from something. You wanna run towards something. And I don't know if I took enough time to really figure out what I wanted to do or what I was running away from. And I got this job offer from this boutique consultancy that was a bunch of ex McKinsey people, um, that was doing restructurings. And I took it because, it was like even more prestigious in some ways than McKinsey and more money. so I wouldn't say it was the right value. Alignment in terms of my rationale for going there. And I went there and that was even worse. And then over the course of a few years there, things started, you know, things continued to kind of unwind to at the end. Um, before I left, although I did well by their metrics, I was in almost as bad a place as I was coming outta the service. And I, I was just. Self-aware enough to be like, what the heck are you doing? Like, you've made so much progress. and now you're, you're back. And I was looking at a lot of my peers who, you know, a lot of the folks that are in that industry come from wealthy families and they have really good educations and a lot of them have similar symptoms, and I got to this kind of, you know, breaking point where I was like, I'm just. Fed up with it and I left and I had no idea what I was gonna do. I just knew I wasn't gonna do that anymore. And then through that transition is how I ended up working on what I'm working on now, which I think is a complex environment, which is funny and ironic, but at least at the core I think we're really helping people, you know? And that to me is, you know, everything's a give and take and there's trade offs, but it's so long as I can like feel really. Good about the work. I'm okay with hard work. I like hard work,

Codie: 14:15

Was there a specific moment within your journey that you, came to have that conscious awareness that you were just very unhappy with things, or unhappy with the direction of your life, and I'm sure, have you seen others? I'm sure you've, worked with people, whether they were in the organizations that you were in at the time or current clients where there's this general disdain for where they are now, but yet they feel stuck and they're not really sure what to do. IM wondering if you have any thoughts on that or if you have any advice to, somebody else in similar situation.

Neil: 14:50

Yeah. well, your, your body knows, you know, and a lot of times I think anxiety is your body's way of trying to give you a little bit of a hint that something's outta whack and you should pay attention to it. But what. Many of us do is we bury that with alcohol or, other things that numb. Um, and that was me. And then, yeah, it kind of hit me. I mean, I had another, um, when I got outta the service, I went through a divorce and so that was a big, I mean, it was terrible, you know, it was, it was terrible. And she was an ama is an amazing woman and I, wasn't a good. Present, kind, loving man in that relationship, And that's like been one of the hardest things I've had to forgive myself for, frankly. but that came from my state of being at the time this traumatic, this traumatized state. You know, I just wasn't able to do it. And at the end of the PE job, I, you know, ruined another relationship, I would say. And I was, chasing money. I think you can get into this loop where you're super stressed and busy and you're making money, and then you try and, soothe yourself or fill in the gaps with stuff. Bigger house, car, you know, all these things and, but that doesn't really fill you up. It's a little dopamine boost. It's like eating sugar. It's like very temporary, but then. Sugar will leave you more hungry than you were before because it's not filling up your spirit or whatever you want to call it. It's not wholesome. And um, yeah, I was, I took this role at this company that was headquartered out of Florida and I was about to get by myself. They paid for this place for me. And there was a period of time where I was living on the beach, in this big home. but then going through a breakup with my partner, no friends around, and just like completely empty. And I hated the work. I hated what we were doing, and I was just waking up miserable. Um, and so, yeah, I mean the, the signals were the sleeplessness and the. The anxiety and the unwell, you start to, for me, I mean, everybody kind of has their own tendencies they go to when they're not well. But I isolate and, you know, it was all the same things that I was going through when I got out of the service. And then I kind of saw that and, um, yeah, finally just made a decision to, leave.

Codie: 17:29

so you knew something wasn't right and, you know, you wanted to change something within your life. can you explain the narrative, from how you went from that moment to then co-founding a retreat institute that helps people, overcome their own issues?

Neil: 17:44

Yeah. Well in the last, that last role I had, I, the one saving Grace was my boss, the CEO at the time. So I led the restructuring as a consultant and then. Got offered a job to be on the executive team, which was this big promotion. It was a half billion dollar company. I was in my mid thirties. So it was like, by most measures it's like, oh wow. Go, you know, Neil's doing great. Well, I was, I was struggling with the work we were doing 'cause it was restructuring and it was just toxic. And, the, uh, you know, the company was teetering, And there was just a lot of infighting and, the CEO was a really great guy and he believed in me and he gave me this opportunity and I took it. And then I had a relatively contentious relationship with my peer, who was the CFO, who was 15 years older than me. Never thought that I should have the job 'cause I was too young. And we had a little bit of a pretty open, contentious relationship. And I just like wasn't a, you know, I was in a different mode than where I was. Not being as empathetic and patient as I can be. And then the CEO ended up leaving and the CFO became the CEO. So then he was my boss instead of my peer. And it was just like, okay, this is just went from pretty bad to completely untenable, it was a nightmare. And so that was just, I just, it wasn't gonna work. And so then I left and I didn't know what I was gonna do, but I just had been, well before, you know, I had. I had seen a different way of being and living, and I got back to meditating regularly. I had the space to do it and um, I ended up in Mexico with some friends and just trying to get away from the madness and spend time in nature and learning how to surf. And I was teaching meditation in Mexico just as a hobby, and I had been on some. Psychedelic programs over the years, myself, I was paying attention to what was going on in the news and watching all the investment come in. And and then friends of mine started coming down to spend time the Huichols is in this town. The Huichols are a local, indigenous community in Mexico that has been using psychedelics for thousands of years and. They're really accessible and so I, I was having friends come down and was connecting them with the Huichol and they were doing their sessions and going back home and meditating on the beach. And then, yeah, it just, it happened really organically, which I think is a really good signal. You know, it just started kind of presenting itself. I was like, well, why don't I just do this in some way? I'm not as concerned about trying to make as much money anymore. I, in that transition from my. Corporate job did. Like I sold my house, I sold my car, I like got rid of all my stuff. I was like, I don't need this stuff. And I had this really simple life, with nothing, um, in Mexico and was happier than I had been in years. And so I was like, is there an opportunity for me to make a living doing something that I love? And so I started to bat this idea around with friends of mine. you know, I kind of wrote out a. Thesis or a business plan and started sending it to people. And a lot of people at that time were like, this is, you're, you're gonna burn bridges to the professional world, but if this is what you want to do, then do it. And then the, you're an entrepreneur, you know this, it's, uh, these early ventures, it feels like you're spinning wheels. Like, you know, it's, is this gonna work? It's not gonna work. You're super passionate about it. It's so frustrating. And then something, something happens. You meet someone, some, you get some big contract and then it's a step change, you know? And then it's a different, it becomes something dramatically different sometimes, like overnight. And that for me was meeting this woman, Amanda Feilding and her family. And, uh, it was the most serendipitous connection. I mean, they were wanting to build an organization that was gonna do these long form programs and kind of nonclinical. For the betterment of the, well, they wanted to do it in a really conscious way. You know, they, uh, wanted to be a bit of a counter to some of the fast money that was coming into the space and running these, pe, med playbooks, trying to get as much money as fast as possible. They're like, no, there's something here, but we can do it in a more thoughtful way. and I was, uh, young. Entrepreneur that was looking for some resources in a brand. And when you overlaid kind of how they were thinking about it, what their vision was with what I was starting to sketch out, it was like complete match. And so we just kind of got started and it's been, it's coming up on four years.

Codie: 22:48

and so can you explain what Beckley Retreats does exactly? who's your ideal client and how do you guys help people? I.

Neil: 22:56

Yeah, we run, um, integrative health programs, wellbeing programs that use psychedelics as a catalyst or an accelerant. Um, for change. Help people make really positive change in their lives. And we run programs in Jamaica and the Netherlands. it's the two places where we can use mushrooms or truffles in the Netherlands, which have the active component of psilocybin, completely legally out in the open, no gray area complications we're insured, you know, it's all above board. And, um. You know, we teach people how to take better care of themselves. So we teach people these basic wellbeing practices. We teach meditation, mindful movement, different breath work exercises. we looked at what was happening in the industry broadly, and there's some amazing people out there doing amazing things for sure. and the wild, wild west. I mean, it's, there's

Codie: 23:51

Hmm.

Neil: 23:52

really fly by night operations out there that aren't doing any screening. There's no checks on the facilitators. There's no checks on the mushrooms, there's no follow up, there's no thoughtfulness to it. You know, they're just trying to make money. And we said, let's professionalize this. You know, let's, be thoughtful about this. And so we looked at, adult learning. We looked at habit change science, we looked at integrative health. We looked at what was happening in the clinical environments in the United States. We looked at what was happening in the indigenous communities where people have been using these plants and said, maybe these folks that have been doing this for a couple thousand years have something to teach us that the Western medical system might not fully understand yet. And we kind of packaged that into a comprehensive program that has this digital preparation portrait portion that you can do from anywhere in the world and then has a immersive portion that happens on site in those locations and then has a digital follow up. because really ultimately what we want is habit change. We want behavior change. We want it to stick. You know, we don't wanna just give someone a experience and then it fades. We wanna help people learn new ways to be, and, our guests, and we, it's a fascinating group of people. 14% of our guests have PhDs, which I think in the United States, it's like one or 2%. And a lot of 'em are really high performers. So business executives, we just had the former COO of Disney World come through. we had one of the most senior partners from McKinsey and Company come through. And so it's people that are generally, well, we screen out severe indications. it's people that are looking to make change to develop better connection, to think more creatively, more strategically. to learn how to take better care of themselves, to develop more of a spiritual connection, more connection with nature, become more empathetic. It's these go from good to actualization, you know, or learn at least the direction.

Codie: 25:55

Something I want to touch on that you mentioned earlier is that there's a lot of fly by night operations, as you said, and there was recently an article, I'm not sure if it was in Vox it came up a few weeks ago, and it was an in-depth article that looked at, operations, especially in Costa Rica that used Ibogaine as a treatment. so, you know, we have, psilocybin mushrooms, we have Ayahuasca, ibogaine, and, and surely there's a few other DMT, et cetera. but with Ibogaine in particular, there was a death at one of these retreats. It was, somebody who ended up having, uh, he was getting off of opioids and he had, kind of a cardiac condition from that. I think Ibogaine kind of interacted with that. And they didn't do the, proper medical screening prior, and he ended up dying at one or two days later after the initial, full treatment. And that article really brought to light that, as you said, it's kind of like the wild, wild west to some degree, is that, the article seemed to infer that they, there were operations that were purely in this, simply for the money, and they were just trying to maximize the amount of revenue and profit that they're able to derive from this. And, you know, these, clinics operate in areas where it's kind of a, a gray area, so to speak, where maybe these drugs are not legal, but they're not illegal. But I'm wondering if you know anything about that and if you, might wanna elaborate on what, what is, the danger here with somebody trying to find a retreat to heal themselves and how they might avoid a situation like that?

Neil: 27:25

Yeah. it's, um, it's tragic. So I heard about this. I haven't looked into it, so I don't know a lot of the details. I just got an email about it just a couple days ago. Um. And Ibogaine is, Ibogaine, I would say in some ways is in a league of its own. It has a pretty unique cardiac risk. And so that needs to be dealt with in a, in a whole different level of care. Um, and like I said, I don't know the, the details of this particular one, but I'm a big believer in ibogaine generally, and. There's some really good operations out there, and for some severe conditions like complex PTSD or um, severe addictions, there's a Stanford study that just came out, and I've seen it personally impact many, many veterans, it's profound. And from a pharmacological standpoint, if you listen to the scientists talk about it, they'll say, you know, we've never seen anything like it. It has mechanisms of action that we've never seen. So there's tremendous potential.

Codie: 28:34

Right. think, like, say, somebody if you have a, chronic opioid addiction, or, or even alcohol, there's instances of people having one iboga treatment and they just wake up and they just have no interest. Uh, it

Neil: 28:46

Yeah,

Codie: 28:47

it's a, it's

Neil: 28:47

does some, some deep level of, reset. but like I said, you know, you need to be hooked up to. You need to have doctors and you need to have the right kind of, um, cardiac care around it. but I think the biggest thing is, well, there's, I mean, how we think about safety, I mean, I should, you know, we think about it, through the whole kind of program lifecycle and the things that I think that we do really well, that are really important is screening. You know, so we're, God bless the people that are out there dealing with. Opioid use, you know, and getting people that are near suicide that that's important work. And that's a whole different level than what we're doing where we're screening out that severe indications because we're trying to manage for a positive group dynamic and we're also trying to mitigate. Mitigate risk. And you know, I mean that heavy work is tough on the teams too. I mean, my god, it's just, it's, it's important work, but it's different than what, what we're doing. So I think screening is really important and people, educating themselves on whether they're a fit and what risk factors they have. And what risks are involved in these, compounds? you know, we do a preparation portion, so we're teaching people. How to manage these experiences, developing some of the basic wellbeing practices that we think are, helpful and people being able to have a, a more meaningful and positive experience. We screen our facilitators. We train our facilitators. because we operate in a fully legal environment, we're able to test the compounds that we use chemically and, our facilitators test them. Um. On site, uh, you know, a lot of psycho knots will say something around, the psychedelic is less than 50% of the experience. More is the set and the setting. Who you're, where you are, who you're with, why you're doing it. Right. And this is where, for mushrooms, at least, unlike Ibogaine, if you, if you screen, you know, generally they're quite safe, you know? they're non-toxic. Looks like they're neurogenerative. Where people get themselves into these bad situations is they take 'em, unknowingly or in the wrong situation, and then they have this dramatic perception stuff and it scares the heck out of 'em. But you can mitigate all that. You know, you can, if you teach people what's gonna happen, and then you give them, you know, make sure there's good facilitators, then you can kind of minimize the possibility of a traumatic experience. Where people still have challenging experiences pretty regularly, but that's part of it. and then having, uh, you know, you want to have facilitators that have been doing this work for a long time, so they've seen different outcomes and know how to manage it. And if something goes a little sideways, they don't become panicked and you know, and you want to have an organization that has. Well-documented safety standards like you'd expect at a hospital. Like if something goes wrong, then this is what happens. And you wanna make sure that there's access to medical treatment. we always have a nurse on site and, um, you know, access to local medical facilities and, and then, you know, on the, on the back end, you know, we're staying in touch with people. It, it's, you know, you can. It's limited, uh, what you can do digitally, but you can still be a resource for people and make sure that they have what they need and connect them with, um, additional services that they need. It. So, you know, we kind of think about it across the entire time. we have someone in one of our, you longer programs, but, um, I think, you know, people should, um, it's relative risk. You know, and it's, what's the risk versus what's the benefit? And I think that if you, you know, everybody's different, but you gotta kind of do that calculation on your own. But for many people, I would say that doing psilocybin in a controlled environment with highly trained people in a structured program, is there risk? Yes. But is that, what's that risk relative to. Going out and drinking alcohol with your friends or taking maybe too big of a edible by yourself that you bought the smoke shop or taking prescription drugs, you know, so it's, and I think that what we need to do as an industry is help people have the resources to be able to make that eyes wide open decision. And then, hey, we're adults, you know? And, um, I think people should have access to these. Potentially profound experiences. So long as there's no, um, you know, we're not hiding things. We're not telling people that there's not risks or that this is gonna a hundred percent change their life and, you know, those types of things. We're not baiting and switching, we're being honest.

Codie: 33:55

And, so as an insider, there's, a lot of other retreats and companies doing this nowadays. Is there any reliable source or way that people might try to evaluate? Whether the, retreat that they're finding is, right for them, because I think particularly on, on yours or any others, often these retreats, they're thousands of dollars and I think not a lot of people can obviously afford them. You know, you, you mentioned that the previous executive at Disney, is this something that are, is a more affordable solution Okay. Or are they often more likely to make, uh, cheap, cuts that are likely to result in a worse outcome? And just how can somebody properly evaluate, uh, an organization or a retreat?

Neil: 34:40

Yeah, I mean, I would try and get people on the phone, and have your questions and ask about the training of their facilitators, ask about the access to medical facilities, ask about the sources of the mushrooms and how they test the mushrooms and get an understanding of the leadership team and what's their backgrounds and how long have they been doing it, and why have they been doing it? And is where they're doing it legal, because if they're doing stuff, then places that's not legal, well, that's not necessarily a nail in the coffin, but it's a check in the wrong column. You know, in my opinion is the company insured. Um, you do have to do more research for these types of experiences because there's no central governing body. when you go into a hospital in the United States, there's you know, organizations out there that. Are doing checks and balances, right? But that's not happening. So you have to check yourself if this company is holding themselves in check and has the right things in place. but there are some good ones out there. And then on your question around cost, you know, it was a decision for us to, um, stay a bit on the higher end and not. Try and find cost savings to bring the price down and then fix the accessibility option through scholarships and financial aid, which we do quite a bit of and are doing more and more of. But could you have an experience like this for less money than a five night kind of all inclusive at a state in Jamaica? For sure. The mushrooms are cheap, you know, and, people do it all the time. Um, but I think our guests. You we're not trying to be everything for everyone. We're looking for people that are really taking this seriously. want to do it legally, want to do it as part of a program where they're gonna really learn something and develop some skills and get a lot out of it. And I think we're kind of happy to stay in that lane.

Codie: 36:39

and did you say that you do these in group sessions?

Neil: 36:43

Yeah. All of our programs, and we really believe in this too, you can have. Um, a psychedelic experience in one-on-one, or by yourself or in a clinic. And, we're supporters of that. I think if you look at, the data, it's encouraging. but for us, the group matters and a lot of definitely some of what we're correcting for, for some of these people is the fact that we lead these very disconnected transactional existences. You know, and we find tremendous value and our guests find tremendous value in doing it alongside other people. And I think of because of, I don't know, there's probably lots of reasons. Um, but the folks that we're attracting, it's people that, uh, really taking it seriously. And we've, yet to have a single issue where there was like a really bad apple on our program. It's people that are generally well, are really like thoughtful. They're doing this as an investment in themselves and they want to be better versions of themselves. And so if you get groups that are all coming in with those similar intentions and coming in from that same place, then then it works really well., um, I think in the. West in a lot of ways, you know, some of our mental health challenges is we're, we're too indexed on self. We're sitting there in a constant loop reflecting on our state, you know, and, um, not all cultures are like that, you know? And um, and then you go into a psychotherapist's office in the United States, and then they're like, well. You're, you're already thinking about yourself too much, and they're like, well, think about yourself from this angle. So they're almost like reinforcing this self-assessment loop that is part of the problem. It's the mind is too overactive and you need to just like go be and stop dissecting everything, you know, like that's, part of the problem. And so when you bring a group of people together and you get 'em in a group. And they go around and they share, they see that it's not just them that's having these challenges, it's everybody. And then you have like a late stage cancer patient come down and talk about they have six more months to live and you've got your, 45, 50-year-old executive that's, woe is me because I can't find meaning. And they hear the cancer patients say that they're about to die. It kind of like, whoa. Boom. You know? It puts things in perspective and we all need that. we need to see that it's not just us. And it's, a lot of the challenges that many of us are going through, it's just part of the human existence and it's, it's okay and you don't have to sweat it so much. And I think you can only really do that in a group. Like the one-on-one kind of clinician patient dynamic is, is, is really good in a lot of ways. And, you know, it'll never go away and there's, there's definitely use cases for it. But, healing in groups with other human beings, supporting each other as peers has a lot of value, a tremendous amount of value. And my argument would be, it can be even more cost effective too, if we really think about scale and like, how do you get this work to more people safely? I think what we hope to do is, we're a bit more higher price now because it's not cheap what we're doing. In Jamaica and there's tons of setup costs and it's just not inexpensive to run these programs the way that we do. And we're also still learning and, but I think we have a vision where, there's more offerings that maybe aren't as it at locations that are as premium and there's more of an apprentice model with the facilitators, and we're offering a very similar experience, but it's more. Community based and much, much less expensive and much, much more accessible. But that'll just like take some time. You know, we've gotta kind of build into that.

Codie: 40:46

and what kinds of expectations might people have that say, that you've seen or that, perhaps they should have? Because I've, personally seen this, this idea of as psychedelics has become more mainstream, that, many people tend to look at it initially as like a panacea to a lot of the issues that they're encountering in life. And my view, it's really shifted to seeing psychedelics as just like anything, just like therapy, just like counseling, having like a job that you like, eating the right foods, exercising it, it's like a tool. And I think there's been, too much weight and expectation that can perhaps, be put into it. And so, what do you tell your clients who are about to come on the retreat and. Are you familiar with any experiences that people have had, uh, where perhaps they had too much of an expectation and then they didn't get what they were hoping to get out of it?

Neil: 41:43

Yeah. I think this is a really important point too. It's, um. Again, we're kind of conditioned to want to be able to have a quick, quick fix and take a pill and that it'll fix us on its own. But that's not how these compounds work. They are a tool or an accelerant, in many ways. But you have to show up and, um, you know, what'll often happen is, you can have this really profound experience and then for some period of time after the experience, you might have this like. Glow and you'll notice that your perspectives are just different. And we'll have people, they say things like, I just realized that my life is beautiful. Like it's amazing. Why didn't I realize that before? And they'll just have like these moments throughout the days where they're just like grateful and that's super positive, right? Or they'll say, you know, something my wife used to do used to annoy me and now it doesn't like get in my body or in central nervous system. I see it. And then I just let it be like, why am I gonna get annoyed about that? So all these like, positive ways of being. but the thing you know, that we're really clear on from the beginning is like, that's just the opening. You've gotta kind of show up and you've gotta like work with that opening and you've gotta practice things. Or the likelihood is you will revert back because by the time you get to be a young adult. So much of how we're showing up in the world are these deeply rooted patterns in our psyche. And there's a lot of momentum there. It's like a, you know, a rut in the road that's been worn so deep, like, and you gotta make conscious effort to lay in some new patterns or you're gonna go back, you know? And um, and so these compounds are, profound tools, but they take work, you know, and. In some ways they, you know, we don't understand the brain super well. We don't understand the central nervous system super well, we're theorizing. But what it seems like is happening in some ways is these experiences are in some ways bringing some of these traumas or experiences, that are deep in us in some ways to the surface. And that can actually be a bit. Disorienting. It could be a bit scary to kind of relive something or be confronted with something that you've had tucked away in a box neatly for quite some time. It was seeping up through your subconscious, but you had it boxed in so now it's right there. But in that new awareness, then there's an opportunity to develop a different relationship with it. So like for me, the military stuff, you know, I still remember all the things that happened to me, but. They're not like in my central nervous system, they've brought'em to the surface and then in some ways allowed them to pass. but even that, it's not one and done. I, there's this saying that, you know, the deeper the trauma, the more times it needs to be let go. so it takes work. But I think these plants and these compounds can really help that. And yeah, we've had people that have come down, um. There's some people we don't know who they will be. Um, but it's a, it's a percent, you know, in that region, percent or two maybe, that you'll give 'em a high dose of mushrooms and they'll have no experience, none and they'll lay there. And for someone that's coming down with the hope of having a pretty significant breakthrough and they took this time off work and they paid a lot of money, it can be really disappointing. You know, it can be really disappointing. but that's just the reality. you can plan to climb a mountain and have bad weather. it's hard to predict. But I think for us, what we want to do is just be as open book with people about the possible outcomes and the potential risks and not oversell it just be fact based with the data that we have and what we see and. It's not a panacea, but for some people, for some things, it's incredibly positive.

Codie: 45:53

and how does somebody know if they're right for a spiritual retreat, like the one that you guys offer?

Neil: 46:01

That's a good question.

Codie: 46:02

Or what kinds of qualifications do you guys look for to, see whether somebody would be a right fit for going to one of your retreats?

Neil: 46:10

Yeah, I mean the biggest kind of gates for us are, you know, how is that person today? So we can't, we're just not set up to handle folks that are in really. Bad states, suicidal ideations, you know, high levels of drug use, you know, on, currently on, we don't do people that are currently on prescription psychiatric drugs. not because there's necessarily like a contraindication with the drugs, just because that's a signal of some underlying stability that's being medicated and, we're not, we're not doing medical work, you know, we're not suited for that. and so we're looking for people that are generally well. that are working, you know, most the guests that come down, they're looking to, um, we hear people, you know, have sentiments. Like, I just feel stuck. I wanna make change and I haven't been able to make change. But generally they're like, they're, well, they're not unstable. They're, you know, they're going, okay. Um, we have people come down that say, They want to process a loss like the death of a loved one, or they just lost a job and they just like want some, they wanna process something and then, you know, honor it, not forget it, but move past it. You know, I think our experiences are really good for that. we have a lot of people come down that are kind of high performers and they wanna get to the next level, like executives or athletes. That just like someone would go on a meditation retreat to learn better self-awareness, learn how to, balance the central nervous system and get a bit of a tuneup. I think the experiences are really good for people that are looking for that. people that are looking to develop more connection, more empathy, with others, with nature, get their mind out of the way. Right. The mind can get in the way sometimes from. Allowing us to connect with others. And so all those types of looking to go from doing pretty good to doing even better are all good kind of desired outcomes that are a good fit for our program.

Codie: 48:18

And do you have any potential growth plans in the future that, do you have any ideas or hopes as to where do you hope that this, intersection between healthcare and spirituality might go in the next 10 years?

Neil: 48:31

I'm hopeful that, um, I don't think it's a top down thing that's ha that's gonna happen. you know, because there's really entrenched interests that like the system the way it is, and it's a good business model the way it is. And so I don't see them on their own making dramatic change, but I think. Because people can learn so much now on their own and are caring more about things and are fed up with the system, are kind of demanding change. I think there is this more grassroots type effort around, more preventative health, holistic wellbeing, as opposed to the late stage, really expensive intervention that we do in the Western healthcare system. And along with that, I think that. people are realizing that this idea of spirituality, it's not as woo as we thought it was, and there doesn't need to be this divide. I mean, we sit here talking, here today, and I mean, whether you look at biology or chemistry or cosmology or physics. we're spinning it something like a thousand miles an hour rotating around this huge ball of fire, uh, rotating around a galaxy. some physicists would say we're traveling at the speed of light. And so I just say that it's like there's something going on that's pretty profound that we don't have a clue of. Right. And, um, so I think that, uh, This idea that there is some intelligent design or there's some innate wisdom in us that we can tune into, we should at least be open to that because there's all these other things that are like phenomena that we have no clue how it's happening. And it's, uh, and I think people are starting to see that. And I think we'll be able to like measure around some of these things more as we go. You know, I mean, Reiki is an interesting example. Reiki, um, energy medicine where. People can, some people or or Joe Dispenza's work, right? Like, I mean, he's studying it where people have measurable biological, chemical changes in their body after a week of meditation. Where's that coming from? Um, you know, in western medicine we have the placebo effect. Well, how the hell does that happen? No one knows. But it's real. You know, you're the. Your consciousness, what you believe has a dramatic impact on outcomes. And so there's all this, you know, anywhere you look, there's all these things that are happening that, um, should make us humble ourselves a bit into, um, accepting that there may be some things that are happening kind of behind the scenes or below the surface that, uh, we should pay attention to. And Reiki. That's a good example of the top down. It's probably not gonna happen. It wasn't hospital adminis or there's a, there's an article in the New York Times a few years ago that, that I love, but it says there's no scientific reason why Reiki should work, so why does it, and it's becoming available at a lot of hospital systems where you can have someone come in and do energy work on you. And that didn't come from the administrators, it came

Codie: 51:44

Are we talking like chakras?

Neil: 51:46

y yeah, that's re that's related. Yeah, it's related. But Reiki is a type of energy medicine where people will, um, be near a practitioner will, will, uh, be near a patient and will, you know, transfer something to them, right? And there's people that train in this and you can, we're starting to study it and there is impact there. but the hospital system. never would've brought that in on their own, but there was enough ground roots support saying, Hey, why isn't this here? That now it's starting to pop up. So I think we'll see those type of changes happen where people are like, no, maybe we need to, um, instead of having people in the hospital with windows that don't open and never be able to out be outside, maybe we need to be able to have people be able to go out and get some sunshine during the day. Or get some fresh air. Right. and I think that, that, that's, that's happening. And there's examples of healthcare systems around the world where that don't look like the United States, where it's just a pill or a hospital state. trying to live better, be more preventative,

Codie: 52:57

Yeah, I love Dr. Peter

Neil: 52:59

Mm-hmm.

Codie: 53:00

work on that as he's one of the few doctors that Become outspoken and this, that the fact that we need to be proactive about healthcare and that for all of the centuries past doctors have only been reactive and solving issues with a pill and not preventing them from happening. And so I, I certainly hope that where in a new phase of society where we've seen this emergence of, spirituality without religion as, people realize, you don't need to believe in a God to have a connection with yourself or the universe or, some higher existence.

Neil: 53:35

yeah, exactly. Exactly. You can go, direct. You don't need a big building or, or an intermediary. You can develop these, these, connections on your own. And I think that's what we're trying to help people do is reconnect. On a personal level without the need of, some external support.

Codie: 53:56

Right. Yeah. And, whether that's, through psychedelics or meditation, it seems that, there, there's an ever expanding amount of resources available for people interested in this area of developing themself further. And so I'd, like to ask if there are any resources, whether there are any authors, books, even blog posts, and anything that you might recommend that people look at if they're just. Wanting to dip their toes in the water and see whether this type of retreat could be helpful for them.

Neil: 54:33

Yeah. Um, how To Change Your Mind by Michael Pollan, I think is an excellent book.

Codie: 54:39

yeah, I loved how to change your mind. In some ways he brought that to, to mainstream and really shared in such great detail to his ability to recall the experiences and describe them in words. And as you know, these experiences are hard to put into words. and put in a way that I think expanded so many people's, perspective that these are not just drugs that are, it doesn't have to be like, you don't have to be a hippie, and it's not necessarily something that you have to hide from those around you. That it is something that we're starting to recognize as a society that has medicinal benefits. And I hope that we will continue to see this integration of these types of drugs into everyday life.

Neil: 55:29

Yeah, me too. The other book I was trying to think of that I, um, that I really like is called Stealing Fire. and then one of my all time favorites by Jon Kabat-Zinn, who's a meditation instructors wherever you go. There you are.

Codie: 55:43

Hmm.

Neil: 55:43

Um, so that's a

Codie: 55:44

That's a great book.

Neil: 55:45

great book, right? Yeah.

Codie: 55:47

And so I think we're at the end of the podcast for the most part. So Neil, I, I absolutely. It's been a pleasure to have you. I really appreciate you sharing your journey and some of the insights that you've gained and helping to operate this type of retreat. And I think for anybody who's interested, you can check out beckley retreats.com. we'll, put that in the show notes, obviously. and I believe you offer a range of experiences that seek to help people kind of overcome some of these issues that they may encounter in their life. Um,

Neil: 56:20

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. Hopefully maybe we can get you down on a program sometime.