[00:00:00] Greg: At the end of the day, most disagreements between people are results of misunderstandings, and if we take responsibility as hours for clearing up those misunderstandings, our everyday life will get significantly easier.

[00:00:14] Intro: Mind Hack is a podcast about the psychology of performance, behavior change, and self optimization.

[00:00:21] Intro: Each episode explores how to think better, work smarter and lies more intentionally through conversations with top thinkers, entrepreneurs, and scientists.

[00:00:35] CODY: Hello and welcome to the Mind Hack Podcast, the show where we explore the science of peak performance, mindset, and personal growth. I'm your host Cody McLean, and today I have not one but two special guests. Joining me, Josh Davis, PhD. In Greg Press Kin the co-authors of the fascinating new book called The Difference That Makes The Difference, NOP and The Science of Positive Change.

[00:00:59] CODY: [00:01:00] Josh is a neuroscientist and an expert in neurolinguistic programming who spent years teaching people how to harness their mind's potential. And Greg is a trial lawyer turned entrepreneur who has applied these techniques in high stakes courtrooms and business deals. Together, they've combined their insights to show how small changes in how we think and communicate can lead to big positive outcomes.

[00:01:21] CODY: In this episode, we're going to demystify NLP and find out what exactly is the difference that makes the difference and how it what it means for lasting change. We'll hear Greg's story on how learning NOP transformed his career, and Josh will share how neuroscience backs up his powerful tools for change.

[00:01:40] CODY: By the end of our conversation, you'll have practical tips, maybe even a simple exercise that you can start using right away to improve your own life. Whether it's communicating more effectively, overcoming mental roadblocks, or building confidence, this episode is packed with wisdom to help you lead the way and helping you make positive change.

[00:01:58] CODY: Welcome to the podcast guys. [00:02:00]

[00:02:00] Greg: Thank you. Great to be here. Thanks for having us, Cody. You're

[00:02:03] CODY: welcome and I'm, I'm really fascinated by your unique collaboration and I would love to understand kind of a scientist and a lawyer writing a book together. Can you guys share how all of this started? Sure. So it's actually

[00:02:17] Greg: a funny story.

[00:02:18] Greg: Ever since I embrace the lifestyle of growth, I've always wanted, I always wanna learn. I believe learning is life. You know, in life, trees, people, dogs, anything that's alive does one of two things. It's either it's growing or it's dying. So I believe growth is really important. And I saw an advertisement for a NOP public speaking class.

[00:02:45] Greg: I was certified in NOP years ago and I said, you know what? This sounds like a lot of fun. And that's where I met Josh and he and I hit it off right away. And I said, you know, the, one of the biggest problems. Out there is, everybody talks about NOP talks about different things, but nobody [00:03:00] really knows what it is.

[00:03:02] Greg: And if we can demystify it to, for the public specifically for lawyers, that that's where we started. I think it was going a great way and I'll let Josh step in to tell you his reaction.

[00:03:13] Josh: Yeah. So, so Greg was the visionary here. So Greg, you know, he sees this connection. He comes to me and uh, and he says, Hey Josh, what do you think of this?

[00:03:24] Josh: I think you'd be great for it, which I appreciate and appreciate the shit that you saw that potential. But you said, uh, you said, uh, NLP for lawyers, and kind of in that sentence was the seed of this whole idea. It was just like, wait a second. Of course, these are people who communicate for a living. Right.

[00:03:41] Josh: There's so many powerful tools here, but it's not really accessible. You'd have to be someone like Greg who says, yeah, I'm gonna go and spend all these hours and days studying things and translating them and experimenting with how they're gonna work, right? Most people are just not actually gonna do that, but the stuff is incredibly valuable for them.

[00:03:59] Josh: They [00:04:00] should know about it, right? So let's translate it. Let's just make it accessible, you know? But let's make it something that's easy to understand and and apply. So as we got into it, we started talking about NLP for lawyers, and then we're like, well wait a second, this is bigger, right? This, there's a gap here in how NLP is taught.

[00:04:21] Josh: That leaves many people just kind of out of it. They don't get a chance to get exposed to it unless they're gonna do this deep dive and do one of these trainings that's going to, you know, set them up to be a therapist or a coach, or this deep one-on-one work. So. We started to have the idea, let's make it, let's simplify the complex stuff.

[00:04:40] Josh: Not, not dumb it down, although Greg likes to use that in that term, but, but keeping the richness of it, but make it easier to understand and, and apply without needing to go through all those other steps. 'cause we understand it and we can see how to kind of guide people through that. And of course once they get a taste of it, they may want more.

[00:04:58] Josh: But then we started to realize this is [00:05:00] not just NLP for lawyers. This is NLP for. You know, financial advisors for, for man, for managers, for parents, for, you know, for everyone. So, and then we've, so the book needs to be a general book that anyone can apply and then, and we're doing the work already then to like very, make it very specific how you apply it in your specific arena.

[00:05:18] Josh: So that's, that's where this came from. Now I forget with the question, did you ask us how did it start or what is NLPI wanna make sure we answered the question too

[00:05:27] CODY: well, so as I understand it, so, so Josh, you kind of approached this from the scientific perspective and then Greg provides kind of the, the practical everyday examples in terms of how people can actually apply this to their life.

[00:05:37] CODY: So yeah, I would love to then move to, can you describe what NLP is kind of clearly, practically speaking?

[00:05:44] Josh: Yeah. So why don't I go first on this one? Sure. You go first and then I'll dumb it down for the rest of us. Exactly. Perfect. Alright, so, um, in brief, NLP is a collection of. Tools that are very [00:06:00] effective for helping people make changes in their lives or guide others to change, uh, relatively very quickly and in lasting ways.

[00:06:08] Josh: The reason it's so powerful, um, which is also the reason why not enough people know about it yet, um, even if they've heard NLP, they don't actually really know what it is, um, is because these are tools that come from psychotherapy. Um, so it's, it's just a different world. But psychotherapists are the people who are doing change work passionately and with great care and with great responsibility and ethically all day, every day.

[00:06:32] Josh: Right? And they're succeeding. Or else the, the field wouldn't exist. So NLP, we're going back 50 years, all these brand new therapies. Gestalt, cognitive therapy, family therapy, hypnotherapy, et cetera. And people are having, these therapists are having wonderful breakthroughs unlike anything that's happened up until this point, or, you know, it's starting to happen in the sixties and seventies.

[00:06:54] Josh: So we're in the mid seventies now. No research yet. Very little at least. Um, but a lot of [00:07:00] psychotherapists wanna learn, so they go and they just try to copy what they're seeing these pioneers do. What was different about NLP is you have people approaching it with a linguistics, uh, perspective, a linguistics professor, um, and partner of his who, you know, very deeply getting into the form, not just the content, so that anybody can then take these patterns of communication.

[00:07:22] Josh: Learn to make use of those, apply 'em in different contexts. They also help people understand the mindset that you need to approach it with or can approach it with to make it really sing, um, as well as the tools that they use themselves to study. So you can keep studying and modeling excellence anywhere you see it.

[00:07:39] Josh: So they packaged this. Here we are 50 years on NLP has been tremendously valuable for the people who really study it. And not only then are we trying to take it and make it accessible, but we're also doing something that, you know, I, I guess I don't think there are that many people that would have enough knowledge to be able to do this because I knew NLP [00:08:00] well and had been teaching it and because I had also done a PhD where I studied psychology and neuroscience and I have been a college professor, right?

[00:08:07] Josh: And so I, I know that world. This was largely my contribution. I was drawing the links between the science and these various tools because now things have been studied under different names, and so there is science that makes sense of just about everything in NLP. So that I think really helps to strengthen it as well.

[00:08:25] Josh: So, uh, now Greg, if you wanna tell people what it is in an easy, simple way. Sure.

[00:08:31] Greg: So the way I like to explain it is, imagine Cody, you're eight years old and you get a brand new Macintosh computer from 2025. You have no idea how to use it. I'd like to make that analogy. Our brain is the same thing. We are born with a very powerful instrument and we have no idea how to use it efficiently.

[00:08:52] Greg: What NLP is is an instructional manual for the brain. It makes us more efficient, it makes us better at everything. Not just being lawyers, but [00:09:00] being people. And I think that's the simplest way to explain what NLP is. It really is an instructional manual.

[00:09:05] CODY: An instruction manual, kind of like an operating system for the brain.

[00:09:09] CODY: And so I, I think there's different forms of NLP, perhaps. And so my first experience with NLP, I believe there was a book written many, many years ago that's something like the Essentials of NLP, um, by a guy named Tom. And one of my first experiences in real life was after reading the book and kind of understanding that you can say certain things that cause people to think in a certain way or you can, uh, read kind of facial expressions.

[00:09:35] CODY: And I think my, my first experience was seeing somebody who, who I kind of later believed was a sociopath using NLP techniques to manipulate people. And I know that there's a whole kind of dark aspect to NLP in terms of using it for manipulation. I'm wondering if you can kind of globally define, um, what NLP is.

[00:09:55] CODY: Like, is it reading other people's facial expressions? Is it saying certain things to cause [00:10:00] people to think a certain way? Is it understanding people's mindsets? And kind of changing how you interact with them based on your understanding of them.

[00:10:08] Greg: Can I grab this one first, Josh? And then it will Oh, sure.

[00:10:10] Greg: I'll let you explain it for us. The way I like to explain what NLP is, it's three things. It's techniques to understand your brain, techniques to understand other people's brains and techniques to influence yourself and others. Now having what you said, anything can be abused, anything, uh, anything can be used for good or for bad.

[00:10:33] Greg: In our book, we, we make it a point to advocate for only ethical use of this technology because at the end of the day, as all we can do, and now I'll allow Dr. Davis to

[00:10:44] Josh: step in and yeah, so I mean that's the main point is like, yes, there have been some people who did, and I think that drove a number of people, um, who had those kinds of experiences away from NLP.

[00:10:57] Josh: 'cause who wants to be part of [00:11:00] something like that? Um, so. A couple of things. Anything that can be used for influence? Robert Cialdini's book Influence, right? I mean, anything that can be used for influence can be used for good or evil. And so, so we make a point in the ways that we teach of highlighting that, um, ways to use it ethically, as Greg said.

[00:11:17] Josh: But I would also say anyone who's claiming that you can cause someone to think something or that you can read someone's mind by looking at their facial expressions is wrong. Like you can't, it's not, these are things that if at some point in the future we learn that this can be done right, given the current state of science and knowledge in the world, I think we can all agree these are things that are not possible.

[00:11:38] Josh: We, we all kind of know that. I would, I would say beware of someone telling you that you can do that. That you can cause someone to think something or you know, or read their mind or know what they're feeling or know whether they're lying or something like that. It's just not possible. It doesn't even, it kind of falls apart on the face of it.

[00:11:55] Josh: Right. How would you, you know, there's so much complexity, even if [00:12:00] you could say, oh, you just made this micro expression. I think there was a TV show about this, right? Like about catching people lying, but looking at their facial expressions and knowing how to read micro expressions. Well, at best you could know whether for a fleeting moment they had a certain I.

[00:12:15] Josh: Emotion. But even if they had a certain emotion, like a, a moment of fear that kind of flicked across their face that somebody else might have missed, what does that tell you about what they think and what they believe and who they are and how they, you know, it's like you could have a moment of fear for all kinds of reasons.

[00:12:30] Josh: You could remember something embarrassing or maybe you just like had a strange feeling 'cause you had drank too much coffee. It's like, and I think any reasonable person knows that those kinds of claims, they don't stand up to just basic logic. So I would say if that's the NLP you're coming across, then you know yeah, you're right to step away from that.

[00:12:49] Josh: If you're intrigued enough, and people listening to this presumably are, if you're intrigued enough to say, Hey, maybe there's something here. Hopefully taking this broader perspective and saying, well, wait a second. [00:13:00] Things that are supported by science. And by the way, not that people have taken specific NLP and done research studies saying, I'm testing the efficacy of this particular NLP technique.

[00:13:10] Josh: But as you see in the book. There's NLP techniques that are named, other things studied by other people, right? You look at the parallels and you're like, yes, okay. They really are studying the same thing. But so in that sense, supported by science, and then you also see that we're basically talking about things that are widely accepted.

[00:13:26] Josh: You know, these are psychotherapy techniques that people have been using for 50 years that, you know, they, they're not fringe, they're not weird things to do. So it's just how do you make them accessible? How do you make them teach them in a way that people can pay attention to the right aspects of it and know that they're putting their efforts into the parts that really matter.

[00:13:47] Josh: That's what NLP is. And I would add

[00:13:49] Greg: one more thing if I could. Uh, I don't believe he can influence anyone who doesn't want to be influenced, so I, I think that [00:14:00] what's important, based on what Josh said, there are no magic bullets out there. There's no silver bullet that you're gonna say, boom, and you are now going to listen to me and do everything I said.

[00:14:11] Greg: If there was the case, I would be the most successful trial lawyer in the world, and I would, I would need, wouldn't need to write a book. I would be traveling the world and, uh, giving benevolent bequests all over, all over the world. But I, I think what NLP is, it allows us to question validity of invalid beliefs in ourselves and others and lead others towards a better place.

[00:14:35] Greg: And when I say others, I include ourselves as well.

[00:14:37] CODY: Yeah. I believe, from what I understand is that perhaps NLP, did it start as a function of like watching therapists who were getting good results and then figuring out kind of what were they doing as a means of influencing belief and behavior?

[00:14:53] Josh: Exactly.

[00:14:54] Josh: Yeah. With a particular focus on how they communicated verbally and non-verbally, I. [00:15:00]

[00:15:00] CODY: And so I'd love to look at some kind of fundamental tools that we might be able to use. And I know that everyone struggles with negative thought patterns, and I think your book addresses some of these, these kind of head-on.

[00:15:11] CODY: So for those unfamiliar with NLPC, can you explain some kind of the, the core techniques or principles from your book?

[00:15:17] Josh: Yeah, I think perhaps the foundational idea, and this would be one of the beliefs, so there's, there's the, these beliefs that you can go through life with that will help you with any kind of change work you're trying to do.

[00:15:28] Josh: And then there's specific tools, and I think it's useful to start with beliefs as we do in the book, but the foundational belief in my opinion, is this idea that your reality and my reality are not the same, that nobody has a lock on reality. Nobody can say I know the whole truth and nobody else does.

[00:15:47] Josh: Instead, what we have is a mental model. Some people like to use the metaphor of a map, but like a mental model, like a model train set. It doesn't have everything in that little [00:16:00] world, but you know, you have like a stop here and you've got a mountain, you've got, you can add to that model and enrich it. And then there's more options, more places to go, more, you know, little fantasy towns to interact with and do commerce.

[00:16:11] Josh: And you can keep building it out. In our minds, we keep building out this model. The more we know about a person, you know, a model of how to interact with them and what's possible and what would be considered okay. And how can I feel good about myself and what does success mean? Like we have these mental models we go through anything with, and that's what we base our decisions on, our actions, our feelings, you know, what we invest our time in.

[00:16:35] Josh: And so if you're talking to someone and you want to understand them, let alone influence them, but even if you just wanna understand them and see if you can, you know, be present for them. What makes sense is to come in and assume, wait a second. Reality isn't necessarily the same for them. Let me try to explore what is their mental model.

[00:16:55] Josh: Right? Greg is much more comfortable just like signing up to go do [00:17:00] some cool adventure to take some class than I am. I would think about it for a long time. Right. What's his mental model about this? Well, he has these beliefs that, you know, this is what's fun in life. This is how I'm going to discover, you know, these new skills.

[00:17:13] Josh: And like the investment always pays off. I don't have that belief. I could take it on though, now that I know more about his mental model, and if I do, does that work for me? You know? And it does help. And so I can start to shift myself by taking on piece of his mental model if they work for me or if I unpack something limiting in his mental model, right?

[00:17:32] Josh: Or he unpacks something limiting in my mental model, right? Then he can help me make a shift and say, Hey, let's challenge that belief, right? Or let's build a skill here, or let's go and see if there's someone else who approaches that in a different way. And that's where the magic is. And so. It's this belief, your reality and my reality are not the same.

[00:17:51] Josh: Instead, let's figure out what mental models we're working with. 'cause that's what people base their decisions on.

[00:17:57] CODY: Hmm. And so I think we've all [00:18:00] encountered a lot of people in our life who have a particular feeling about what they're capable or not capable of. And I think we, we tend to default to, oh, you're, you're not stupid.

[00:18:10] CODY: You're really smart. You can do these things. And then, then of course, the person denies these accusations because it's clear that their mental model is kind of having this self-limiting belief about what they're actually capable of. So what do we do when we encounter somebody with some kind of self-limiting belief?

[00:18:26] CODY: How should we help them or help ourselves for that matter?

[00:18:30] Greg: Chapter number three in our book is why not make, and that stands from the proposition, if anybody in the world can do it, so can I. Again with some, with some limits. You know, I'm 56 years old. It's doubtful that no matter what I do, I'm gonna be starting forward.

[00:18:48] Greg: For New York Knicks or, or where you're from, Cody from Oakland, California. So, or play for the, no longer Oakland, but Las Vegas Raiders. Right. Uh, I mean, no [00:19:00] matter what I do, that's not gonna happen. But in general, as a trial lawyer, when I wasn't getting great results, I said, well, others are getting them. So can I, by adopting belief that if it's possible for them, it's possible for me, then we could do something known as modeling it and lp, because success leaves clues.

[00:19:20] Greg: If somebody does something much more successfully than I do, then theoretically if I take every chunk, every little step that they take and I follow it. I should theoretically get similar results to them. And that's in my case, has been the fact in pretty much anything that I've tried, if I wanna lose weight, you know, you don't go to the fat guy down the street to lose weight, you go to the guy who's in shape, you ask him, what do you do?

[00:19:46] Greg: And you follow his steps. If you having problems in your marriage, don't go to divorce guy at the bar and say, yo man, what do I do? Because he's not gonna give you good advice. You go to the best married guy that you know, or gal that you know, and you say, [00:20:00] what's your secret? And if you model them, then theoretically, if you do what they do, you should get the same results.

[00:20:07] Josh: I think also there's, there's a specific tool I can add to that, uh, unless you wanted to follow up with that. No, Josh, I would like you to give us a tool. All right. So in this case, so let's say you've tried it, right? So you, you tried, if you find out what somebody else is doing and you're like, okay, if I did the same thing as them, I would, right?

[00:20:25] Josh: Which, or somebody might say, oh, you just need to change this. Attitude or this belief or this behavior. And you're like, yeah, okay. Let me tell you the, or like as you were saying, Cody, we try to pump people up and say, you're great. You really are good at this. You know? And they say, no, I'm not. Let me tell you the reasons.

[00:20:40] Josh: So sometimes there's resistance, you know, so yeah, always start where Greg's saying somebody is doing it. So there is a way, and if I take on their mental model and understand the skills, I probably can too, right? Or I definitely can. Um, and that sometimes there's resistance. And so here's a specific tool.

[00:20:59] Josh: In that [00:21:00] case, how is it serving you? How is it serving you to say, no, I'm not good. How is it serving you to say no? And the thing is honor the fact that there is some positive intention behind that. I. Don't just say, oh, I'm just trying to sabotage myself, or it serves me because, you know, that way I can, you know, just avoid effort.

[00:21:24] Josh: Right? Sometimes that's a positive intention to save effort, but a lot of times it's, it's something much richer. You know, that there is something really there. It's like, well, I wanna, you know, maintain a sense of my humility, or I want to make sure that I only put myself out there when I think I really have something to contribute, right?

[00:21:42] Josh: People have positive reasons, so if you ask this question, how is it serving you to not do it or to deny these things, or whatever the resistance is, you get some really useful stuff and until you address that positive intention, you're not moving forward.

[00:21:56] CODY: So in some ways are you saying that NLP is, it's a line [00:22:00] of thinking.

[00:22:01] CODY: Is it a way of recognizing, say, a, a negative thought loop and then trying to reshape that? Because that, that reminds me a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy, right? Which is about kind of reframing our thoughts and perspectives. Or is there also some kind of exercise, um, or tools that we can apply if we can first recognize, say, a self-limiting belief exists in the first place?

[00:22:24] Josh: Right. You, you will definitely find a number of things that are very reminiscent of cognitive therapy or cognitive behavioral therapy, and you will find a number of things that you wouldn't find in cognitive behavioral therapy. And that's because they're modeling multiple therapists. Right. And, uh, so yes, that example is a, is a great one.

[00:22:41] Josh: So the one I was just offering definitely is an example of finding a limiting belief, a thought pattern, and changing, replacing that thought with something more useful. But an example of something. That doesn't come from cognitive therapy would be something where, let's say sometimes a person is like, you know, I couldn't, and you kind of, you, [00:23:00] you see that there's like, I don't know, there's like a heaviness about them.

[00:23:03] Josh: And if you start to explore, they might have a mental image of like a gray cloud over their head, right? And they might be kind of looking down, right? And they might be sort of, you know, slumped forward and you can directly explore what happens when I change that mental representation. That would be something else that you'd find within NLP, that this one you wouldn't find too many other places, but there are, you know, you would find it in some, but say that cloud.

[00:23:32] Josh: All right, let me just, if there's anyone listening who feels right now, like they have a gray cloud hanging over their head, right? And they're kind of cast down in terms of staring down, like their energy is downward, right? Well, what happens right now when you take that gray cloud and you move it far away in your mind's eye.

[00:23:51] Josh: You let the sun shine through, you sort of let yourself kinda look up at the blue sky overhead. There's a lot of things that happen in our bodies and our [00:24:00] minds that are nonverbal that are not just about thinking it through, but that very much have to do with how we represent things and whether we have blocks or limits in what we're doing.

[00:24:13] CODY: Yeah. And speaking of examples in the book, you talk about a woman named Andy who initially struggled financially due to limiting beliefs. I'm, I'm wondering if you can talk about her story and kind of how her, her mental model shifted.

[00:24:25] Josh: Mm-hmm. So she's one of those people who constantly kind of. Comparing herself to others, right?

[00:24:35] Josh: Not wanting to, but just unconsciously keeping up with the Joneses, right. Always like, am I doing enough? Am I good enough? Right? So, you know, wanting to feel like she's made it, wanting to feel like she is, you know, I'm a successful adult, right? I, you know, and you know, in this living somewhere where things are kind of expensive, working hard, paying the bills, [00:25:00] setting aside money for college, things like that.

[00:25:02] Josh: And then things happen, like she goes over to, is like at a birthday party, um, for one of the kids. And the house is just this beautiful house, you know, twice as big as her own. And just instantly she's feeling like, oh God, you know, it's like I could never have these people over to my house. And like, wow.

[00:25:20] Josh: Like I'll never have this kind of money and I'll never do, I really belong. And like, what would they think of me? And you know, I'm not really. Successful and all that kind of stuff. And just like, you know, so it's like, should just be a nice afternoon. Right? But, and she's not the only one. We all do this kind of thing, right?

[00:25:37] Josh: What she does in this particular case is to be guided through what we call identifying a well-formed outcome in NLP. And that helps her to really straighten out how she's evaluating success and what she is really moving towards so that these things stop affecting her. 'cause she didn't have a well-formed outcome.

[00:25:54] Josh: Success was this vague thing that was based on comparing herself to others, which didn't even really matter that [00:26:00] much to her. Now we could get into the well-formed outcome particularly, but maybe that answers the question enough. And Greg, I don't know if you had, uh, you know, anything you wanted to add about the well-formed outcome?

[00:26:11] Josh: Sorry, I've just asked you both. Something, Cody, does that answer it enough? Does that give you the story?

[00:26:16] CODY: Uh, and you also mentioned being able to choose your emotional state in any situation. And I think we would all love to be able to do that, right? So how, how do we go about approaching that? Is, is it possible to really shift our emotional state in like a, a stressful situation?

[00:26:34] Josh: Much more than many people realize, much more than many people, really, and don't get me wrong, I still get stuck in them. Greg is better than I am at actually shifting his state. Um, I love guiding people to shift their state, and I can certainly do it myself. Um, but, uh, I see you do it in an instant sometimes, Greg.

[00:26:52] Josh: It's kind of, it's impressive.

[00:26:54] Greg: It's, it's actually a focus of three things. The first is physiology. [00:27:00] Cody, I'm sure you can describe a depressed person. Right. Their shoulders are slumped, they have shallow breaths looking down, just changing physiology alone will change portion of how we feel. So if you sit back, smile, take a deep breath, you're gonna feel better than if you didn't.

[00:27:20] Greg: Next is, uh, what do we focus on? Do we focus on the good stuff or the bad stuff? Like Josh said, do we focus on the cloud or do we focus on the sun? Depending on what we focus on, that's gonna change how we feel. And finally, it's meaning what? Meaning do we assign to the things that we encounter? If it's raining, is that a bad thing?

[00:27:41] Greg: Is that a good thing maybe, right. It just matters what we assign to it. So from my perspective, when I'm having, when I'm in an unresourceful state, I have to change at least one of these three things. Either change the way I conduct myself physically, what I focus on, or the meanings that I assign to the [00:28:00] things that are coming into my, into my focus.

[00:28:03] CODY: Hmm. Greg, I believe you also have like a pre-court ritual of sorts.

[00:28:08] Greg: I do. I have this mantra that I repeat in the back of my head, and I have this power move, which I learned at a Tony Robbins seminar. So I go in the bathroom, I get myself in state.

[00:28:22] Josh: Tony Robbins, by the way, has spoken openly over the years about how he draws so much from NLP, by the way.

[00:28:28] Greg: Hmm. I go to a lot of his seminars. I'm still a huge, huge fan. He is just, he's enormous. The way he can influence people, I don't think anyone can. And he is, uh, just a back judge says he is. He says, look, I am all about NLP. In fact, he runs an NLP certification class, so this technology is great. But to go back to your question, Cody, I do have a ritual, and the ritual is I get myself in state first.

[00:28:54] Greg: I get myself breathing as I would if I felt successful. Then I think the [00:29:00] thoughts that I. Think if I were to be successful when I walk into a courtroom, I'm, I'm like, a freaking gladiator. You know, I, I'm like, you know, and that, that goes a long way.

[00:29:13] CODY: Hmm. It could be part ritual, it could be part looking at the situation through a, a different lens, or realizing, I think the, the most important is realizing that you're looking at a situation through a particular lens and realizing that that's not the only way to view this.

[00:29:29] CODY: That there are other perspectives. And perhaps it's not something that you can do right away in terms of changing your emotional state. Maybe it, it takes some practice, but it, it starts with, you know, making sure that you're, you're sitting up straight, you're smiling, and even if that might not reflect your internal state, that is kind of the prerequisite to shifting your emotional state in any kind of situation.

[00:29:54] Greg: I, I'll give you per, for example, Cody, uh, in one of our. Section one, there's a chapter [00:30:00] that talks about that there's no failure. In other words, there's only feedback. And if you can internalize a belief that if something doesn't go my way, it doesn't mean I failed, or it means I found something that doesn't work and I gotta modify it and try something else that's a lot different than I'm a failure.

[00:30:20] Greg: So I think there are about nine beliefs that are in our book. There's a lot more, but we try to pick the nine of the most important ones in our opinion. And there's quite a few Like, like Josh said, assume good intentions. Assume that when somebody's being an asshole towards you, they're not doing it because they're a bad person.

[00:30:41] Greg: And I apologize for my language, Cody, that they're doing it because there's something in it for them. They have a good intention. So if I think that my wife, my daughter, my friend, the insurance adjuster, the judge, the other lawyer is not being mean to me because it's personal, but [00:31:00] because it's serving some sort of a need that they have, then I am not going to be upset at their behavior.

[00:31:07] Greg: I'm going to try to figure out what is driving them and, and how to, can I address it?

[00:31:12] CODY: I love that concept that there's no failure. There's only feedback. And, and Greg, I believe in your book, you mentioned the story of you being at your first jury trial and it felt devastating because I, I believe you lost it, but it became valuable feedback for you.

[00:31:28] CODY: Could you share some of that, some about that experience?

[00:31:31] Greg: Of course. And the beauty about NLP, it's really a symphony. Each concept kind of interlocks with another one of the concept that goes with what we just talked about. There's no f failure, there's only feedback. There's another one that says, I am responsible for the content of my communication.

[00:31:49] Greg: And again, the actual language is the meaning of communication is not the intent of the speaker, but the impact on the listener. And once you internalize that, you say, wait a second, just because [00:32:00] they heard it a different way, it's not their fault, it's mine. And once it's empowering to know that I am able and I am responsible, have the responsibility.

[00:32:11] Greg: To do whatever I need to do to achieve my next step in my progress. That's very empowering because you're saying it's not them, it's me. And if it's not them, it's me. Then I have control. And it's all about having control. When are we upset? We're upset be when we don't get our results. When are we really upset?

[00:32:29] Greg: We don't, we don't get our results. It'll feel powerless to get them. But if you believe I can achieve any result and it's my responsibility, that goes a long way to making you more effective in every area of your life again. And that's my humble opinion. Hmm.

[00:32:45] CODY: And, and so NLP in general, it's sometimes been met with skepticism by the broader psychological or psychology community.

[00:32:53] CODY: I'm wondering, Josh, could you share, uh, any kind of research or studies or findings that you found that kind of validates [00:33:00] NLP as a useful approach?

[00:33:03] Josh: Well, uh, yes. In a couple of different ways, and I think it's not possible to study. Have a study of NLP 'cause it's a whole field. It'd be like, you know, is there a study that shows that psychotherapy works well?

[00:33:20] Josh: There can't be. Um, but there are studies that show that a, that specific tools are helpful, or that helping someone take on a certain belief is gonna lead to great, um, much greater chances of good outcomes. Like one example, uh, would be, there's wonderful research on what happens when somebody, um, revisits a.

[00:33:42] Josh: A situation that's been very difficult for them, that causes them to ruminate a lot and just get stuck feeling negative. And, you know, something that maybe it harms the relationship, right? That if you revisit that in a particular way where instead of just revisiting it and trying to make sense of it, you first [00:34:00] step outside of it into what an NLP, we would call the meta position, um, into a third person perspective, an impartial observer.

[00:34:08] Josh: And you really manage to embody that disassociated perspective. Then you look back and you try to make sense of what happened. People tend to, and there's been a number of studies on this, where people tend to actually make new meaning in a way where they're able to move on, and even months later you'll see that there's changes in how triggered they get by the same kind of situation or the person.

[00:34:31] Josh: Um, some of the physiological markers are different, like their brains are, you know, not getting triggered in the, like, if you're doing neuro studies, like there's, there's these lasting very impactful effects of a short term intervention, which is one of, you know, a, a, a staple thing that we do in NLP. Is to help people shift the perspective that they're looking from.

[00:34:51] Josh: So is, am I associated deeply into the first person perspective? Ver wonderful for you asked about changing your emotional state, [00:35:00] like on purpose. Well, that's part of one of the really good tools for doing it, which we haven't gone into here on our website. Actually, I, we have a recorded demo of a tool for doing that, um, called anchoring.

[00:35:11] Josh: If somebody wants to, people wanna go check that out. Um, and there's a number of different ways of changing your state, but. In this case associating into the present moment, first person perspective. So it can be very useful, but it also can be not useful. And in NLP we tend to think of what's useful, not what's right and what's wrong.

[00:35:32] Josh: 'cause everything is useful in some context. Being deeply associated is not useful when you're ruminating, right? So taking a third person perspective, but if we wanna learn to communicate more effectively with someone else, taking what's called the second person perspective can be incredibly powerful.

[00:35:46] Josh: And there's ways, and this is some of the ways where some of the learning from hypnotherapy is so key to help people very quickly be able to step past some of the mental filters that limit them from taking on other perspectives and really deeply explore an [00:36:00] idea. You can never, you can't control anyone's mind with hypnotherapy.

[00:36:03] Josh: If you hear somebody saying that again, be wary, right? You can't. What you can do is you can help someone be open to exploring an idea before they've dismissed it. Discovering whether it is appropriate for them. Nobody's gonna take on any idea or way of being way of acting if it's not appropriate for them.

[00:36:23] Josh: So this kind of perspective shift, wonderful research on that, on, on the shift specifically to second person and back to first person on the shift to third person and back to, and so as we move through the book, what we've done is we've taken each of the things we teach, whether it's a specific belief, like the reframe, no failure, only feedback, right?

[00:36:42] Josh: There's research pertaining to that, that some people have come across, let's say in the research on what's called growth mindset, as well as certain other areas like, um, what's called, uh, self-efficacy research. So there's research on each of those beliefs and the potential impact it can have, right? Or there's research on, um.[00:37:00]

[00:37:00] Josh: Making certain mental shifts to what you're seeing in your mind's eye. There's research on some of the behavioral changes that you can make. There's research on doing this, like third person or second person perspective shift or associate, right? So each of these pieces. And then finally there's also actually there you'll find an NLP, these techniques where people have said, okay, let's take several of these pieces together and apply it.

[00:37:21] Josh: And so there's even something now called, um, the RTM Protocol Reconsolidation of Traumatic Memories Protocol, which is, you know, being studied as an entire technique that can be taught to a practitioner with multiple steps, including multiple things like some of these perspective shifts and some of the other tools of NLP as applied to PTSD.

[00:37:44] Josh: And it's having very strong results. Um, so, you know, I. You know, compared to things it's like EMDR and cognitive behavioral approaches, right? And so these are, you know, in reputable journals. So, so there's multiple ways that it can be [00:38:00] studied. And also we believe, and we talk about this in the book, that if there's something that isn't fitting with research, let's, let's accept that, right?

[00:38:07] Josh: Let's work with that and say, let's not be teaching people to do something that doesn't fit with research and let's really explore what, what does make sense, what holds up, what doesn't hold up. And uh, and there are a couple of cases like that, but for the most part, you know, I mean these things, which is not so surprising 'cause they're continue to be used after 50 years in all of these different psychotherapeutic fields do have support of this nature.

[00:38:31] Greg: I think one of the biggest, uh. Criticism of NLP happened because it was this thing called the eye chart. I dunno if you heard of it, Cody. And the eye chart basically said, if you look up and to one side, you're imagining a picture that you're making up. If you look to the other side, you're remembering a picture.

[00:38:50] Greg: If you look parallel to your left or right, you're either making up a sound, you're remembering a sound. And if you look down, you are either making up how you felt [00:39:00] or you're remembering a feeling. And in our, in our book, we're pretty clear that this is, you know, probably very close to wdo science. It's just not accurate, but it can be useful.

[00:39:11] Greg: So if somebody is looking up, you can use that. In context as in combination with other things. Maybe they're visually remembering it or they're, they're looking up for a picture. You can't determine if they're lying or they're remembering, but they're accessing a photo. So there are things there that are probably not foolproof, but they're useful, if that makes sense.

[00:39:39] CODY: Yeah. I, I, I think when it comes to reading facial expressions, everybody has different reactions. And so I think, I believe the science says that you need to have a baseline for that person in a different situation in order for you to start putting the pieces together about what they're doing. Um, but I'm wondering, does that research carry over to micro expressions?

[00:39:56] CODY: Does NLP involve like the micro expressions that [00:40:00] people do where they don't think about things that they're doing, but that in that might indicate certain things that they're thinking or feeling without actually like consciously knowing about it? Is that part of NLP as well?

[00:40:12] Josh: It's not part of NLP. One way that there may be some overlap is that, um, in NLP we talk about calibrating someone, like as you get to know them, just like calibrating an instrument, right?

[00:40:28] Josh: It's like, well, what does anxious look like for this person? Right? And trying to pay attention to that and keep it in your mind, not because when you see it, you're gonna say, I know you're anxious, but because when you see it, you're gonna get curious and explore. I saw you make that expression sometimes.

[00:40:43] Josh: You've made that when you were anxious. What's going on for you right now with the understanding that it can be multi determined? Another way that it shows up is that in NLP we talk about. Learning how to build rapport. And this is something you'll see commonly across multiple different modalities of therapies, [00:41:00] but building rapport by getting in sync with someone.

[00:41:02] Josh: This is another area where there's a tremendous amount of wonderful research that when people are in sync, physiologically, physically, in terms of what they're saying, like when they're in sync, they tend to feel more rapport. Like they really click trust, get each other. When they're not in sync, they tend not to, it's not a hundred percent, but it's a tendency that's reliable.

[00:41:19] Josh: And so one way to get in sync is to try to sort of breathe with the other person, move with the other person a little bit. And it's interesting that the body leads the way and you start to find that you're more on their wavelength and it's easier to connect and easier to talk in most cases. Right. And so when you're doing that.

[00:41:39] Josh: You know, depending on the person and the level of subtlety they get into, they probably are copying certain micro facial expressions, even if they're not aware. Right. You know, or certain postural gestures or movements, things like that. So it's, we're not teaching people to look for the micro expressions and break it down like that, but um, [00:42:00] certainly we are encouraging people to be students of the other person and to pay close attention and to continually be curious about even subtle things.

[00:42:08] Josh: Like, oh hey, there was a moment when you just tilted your head right when I said this. Did anything happen? No. Okay. And we move on, or Yes. And then we go somewhere very useful.

[00:42:17] CODY: Hmm. I love that you, you're approaching it from this perspective of how can we understand others better? My mind's still defaulting to, well, uh, an aspect of if you're having a conversation with somebody and they lean forward, then oh, I should lean forward too.

[00:42:33] CODY: Because the science says that if you mimic their, uh, their behaviors or their actions, their body language, then they're more likely to trust you. And so I'm still thinking about NLP from this perspective of, of manipulation, but perhaps that's just my, my entry into understanding what NLP is. But I, I still love the fact that you guys are approaching it from the, the De Niro programming where, what thoughts and feelings do we have being able to recognize them and [00:43:00] changing and shifting them so that we can achieve a more positive outcome.

[00:43:04] Josh: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it's, you know, if you're thinking a lot about trying to mimic, I. It's hard work, you're gonna be distracted, right? But if you're in general trying to notice whether you're in sync with the other person, and if not, maybe do a few things on purpose, but have that as an intention and pay close attention and stay curious.

[00:43:28] Josh: That's when it's, as you said, it's all in the service of understanding them. When you understand them deeply, you help them understand themselves. Both of you are better able to solve whatever problem there is, and, and as you just relentlessly keep searching for their mental model and you will find the difference that makes the difference for them.

[00:43:47] CODY: Moving on to another principle that you guys talk about in your book is that all I need is already within me, so, so practically speaking, I mean, how can someone truly trust they have all of the internal resources they [00:44:00] need to handle whatever stressful or tough situation they're facing.

[00:44:03] Greg: It's not all of them, Cody.

[00:44:05] Greg: It's the very next one. You. In other words, if I wanna learn how to play badminton, you know, I don't have it in me to go play badminton, but I have it in me to go, go buy a racket to go Google badminton. Coach. I have. What that really means is it's, we have what we need to take the next step on the road to success.

[00:44:35] Greg: And if we take one step at a time, we're gonna get there.

[00:44:39] Josh: Hmm. And if it's always true that you have what you need to take the next step, whether it's learning, whether it's changing your attitude, whether it's changing your state, you know, whether it's taking some specific action, if you always have what you need to take the next step, then what you have is already within you.

[00:44:58] CODY: Hmm. And, and Josh, you [00:45:00] mentioned the book Your Personal Desire to Learn painting despite doubts about your talent. So could you share about how you kind of tapped into these internal resources?

[00:45:09] Josh: Yeah. Well, so, so this is one where I chose something that has always intrigued me and, you know, but, and I want to do it.

[00:45:18] Josh: But it's one of those things like, oh, wouldn't that be nice? Right? Hmm. And so it was an example where I could tap into immediately, like being in this place of saying like, is that a leap too far for me? Do I not have the talent? Could I not? Right? And so by thinking through that process of unpacking, well, what skills do I have that are within my control now that could lead me in the right direction?

[00:45:38] Josh: And once I go down that it's sort of like, yeah, okay. When I'm ready to do that, I will, I have three little kids. It's not something I've chosen to prioritize. Um, but that's, you know, it's, it's not daunting. It doesn't seem impossible to me anymore just because I've thought through, I. Those skills that I have.

[00:45:55] Josh: So that was, that's one that as of the time of this interview, I haven't yet done those things. [00:46:00] Um, but I still think it's a good example of, of identifying, um, those resources I do have within me that make it necessarily the case that all I need is within me. Now I have found myself naturally drawn to paying more attention to what the kids are doing.

[00:46:17] Josh: Uh, 'cause they have taken classes and trying to copy it when I sit down with them. And we're just drawing. And I have been actually delighted with the outcome where both my wife and a couple of other people have seen it, have said, have you studied? You know, like, have you, like how did you learn to do that?

[00:46:34] Josh: Um, and so I was like, wow, that's cool. So, um, so that was really good proof of the method. Um, paying more attention to what they've learned, um, without even taking my own classes yet.

[00:46:44] Greg: And the reason that's important, I believe is we tend to. Get into our own head by biting off more than we can chew. Mm-hmm.

[00:46:53] Greg: And I think by breaking down things to little manageable chunks, we're able to take the [00:47:00] next step. It, it's there. You know, when Josh and I decided to write this book, we didn't just just start writing like crazy and we just said, you know, let's talk about the book. We certainly had the ability to have a conversation and I said, you know what, let's write an introduction.

[00:47:17] Greg: You, you take the first draft, I take the second draft and we wrote the introduction and then Josh said, let's write the first chapter. Then he wrote the first draft and made my changes to the draft and we said, let's send it to an agent. See if he or she likes it. It was sent it to our agent Js, who's a rockstar by the way.

[00:47:37] Greg: And everything was just the next step that was within our control. And, and that's what everything in life, you know, with dating, with kids, with painting the house. You know, you may not know how to paint the house, but you know how to go buy a paintbrush and how to buy a book on how to paint the house, or how to go watch others paint the [00:48:00] house.

[00:48:00] Greg: So I think the next step is always there, Cody, I.

[00:48:03] CODY: Hmm. And I think everybody possesses resilience, uh, curiosity, uh, the ability to adapt. And I think we often discount our ability to, to do these things and to face certain situations. And when we discount them, we, we don't take that next action. And then that tends to have this, this repercussion where if we don't believe we can do, if we, if we can learn a new skill at, at the age of 50, then we're unlikely to learn other things too.

[00:48:30] CODY: Uh, and I think perhaps another technique that I know that I've heavily relied on is past success. I used to think that I was stupid and I would never be able to achieve anything. And then I, I created all these. Brilliant businesses. And then I, when I was young, I thought I could never fly a plane. And so I started taking flight lessons and then I got my license.

[00:48:47] CODY: And so now it's, every time I've gone through a, a tough situation that I once thought I couldn't achieve, that empowers me. So anytime I face another situation, I have so much in my past that I can look [00:49:00] back at as I, I, if I've been through that I can go through anything else that life has to offer me.

[00:49:06] Josh: You know? Um, I've heard a story, um, that, uh, one of the founders of NLP John Grinder had this attitude from growing up that, um, if you, uh, can't do it, you must do it. Right. Hmm. And just, and you know, I mean, he was remarkable at just exploring, trying his hand at. So many different things. Um, you know, one of those examples, if you want a, a model of someone who is willing to just go and learn anything, um, you know, there's one right there in, in his history.

[00:49:44] Josh: Um, and that's exactly the kind of thing that you, sounds like you did for yourself.

[00:49:48] CODY: Yeah. So I, I'd love to shift to discussing how NLP improves our communication with others. 'cause I think it's something that is constantly something we're facing from a professional and a [00:50:00] personal context. So, so could you explain the idea, the meaning of your communication is the response you get?

[00:50:07] Greg: If I can grab this, uh, I communicate for a living. I, I tried cases, so when I get up in front of a jury or a judge and I state my position, it is my responsibility to get the message across. It's not their responsibility to. Glean what I meant and, and there's tools, for example, that I use as a trial lawyer.

[00:50:32] Greg: I will use focus groups. I will present to random strangers my presentation and they'll tell me, you know what? It doesn't make sense after I ask him, so I'll change it. I don't look at his failure. I look at as feedback. I'll try something else and I'm gonna keep trying it until I get it to where I need it to be.

[00:50:52] Greg: So when I finally stand up about the, in front of the ultimate fact finder, I'm confident that I'm delivering a message that will [00:51:00] resonate with them and I don't have to worry about them getting me. It's my job for them to get me not their job. And I think that's what it means

[00:51:11] Josh: to me. Now I can imagine some people hearing that would say, um, yeah, but.

[00:51:18] Josh: It's not my fault that they didn't get it or they need to take some responsibility 'cause Okay, sure, sure. Greg, you're, you know, this is your livelihood. Do you have this monetary and professional reputation kind of motivation to make sure you're getting it right? You know, in that context. Maybe I can do that, but like, what about day-to-day stuff?

[00:51:39] Josh: You know, like just the other day I was, you know, got upset with my daughter 'cause I had said something twice and she still, you know, wasn't like, wasn't hearing me. In fact, it seemed as though she hadn't heard me at all. Right. And so I might be tempted to say, well, it's not my fault. Like, she needs to learn to pay attention as she knew.

[00:51:59] Josh: Right. [00:52:00] You know, and we're not saying who is right or who's wrong, and we're not even saying there isn't a time for that. Maybe there is a time when that's useful. What do you imagine though for your own life? Wouldn't it be more likely that it's gonna be more adaptive? If you act as if it was your responsibility, you can never know whose responsibility it really is and what does it matter anyway.

[00:52:23] Josh: It's not about that. If you, if I actually have the agenda of her hearing me and her being more likely to be in the mental state where she can respond and do whatever, right? Me getting mad like that isn't really gonna help at all. I know that I've tried it, right? I have evidence it's not gonna help, right?

[00:52:40] Josh: But if I take this on, I'm like, okay, wait a second. What context did I set up? What expectations? How did I fail to really like shift the energy before I tried talking to her, you know, and make sure she was focused and so forth, right? That it also leads you to have this like cornerstone skill of NLP, which is to be [00:53:00] curious about the other person's mental model.

[00:53:02] Josh: And so if it's my responsibility, however my communication landed, I'm gonna find out. I'm gonna spend more time learning how my communication landed. And if I do, I can probably get there no matter how gifted I am as an orator or anything, as long as I get there. You know, you think of Colombo, remember that TV show, Colombo?

[00:53:21] Josh: I mean, some people remember it, some won't. But he was not this charismatic guy. He was fumbling over his words, but he always got there. 'cause he just kept going and kept trying to figure out, I don't understand something. Let me try to understand how you're thinking about it. You know? So we just keep going and keep trying to understand.

[00:53:36] Josh: You're more likely to do that if you adopt this belief. The meaning of your communication as a response you get. So if you just take that belief and you show up to any communication context, it's our belief, Greg and I, that you are going to succeed more at that communication than if you show up without that belief.

[00:53:55] Josh: It's gonna lead to so many things, whether you're dealing with specific tools or not. [00:54:00]

[00:54:00] Greg: And it will make you happier in the process because if you're not getting upset with others for not getting you. You'll be a happier person.

[00:54:09] CODY: So, so in effect of what you're saying is that we, we all have the situation with somebody where we say, oh, oh, I didn't mean that.

[00:54:17] CODY: And so what you're saying is that we should take responsibility for how we came across as well, how the other person perceived us. And think about how, what we're saying, the tone that we're saying, the emotion that we're conveying, how that's going to affect the other person and not just exactly what we say.

[00:54:35] CODY: Because in the end, we want to influence that, that person in a positive way. And we often have all these negative interactions because we aren't communicating effectively towards them. So is that kind of what you're saying, is that to take responsibility for how we convey what we're trying to say?

[00:54:50] Josh: Absolutely. Yes. You're exactly right. And thanks for expanding it beyond just the words, also to the tone, the emotions that are coming across. I. We're inviting you [00:55:00] to act as if this is your responsibility, and at the same time we're advising you another important part of NLP to recognize that it's not in your control.

[00:55:09] Josh: So we're not gonna be like beating ourselves up if they're not getting it. 'cause you can't control what someone else now, someone else reacts. What you can control is whether you keep trying, whether you try to explore what landed right, and whether you take responsibility or apologize or you don't apologize, but take responsibility, right?

[00:55:27] Josh: And care about the outcome. If you do those things, then yeah, you'll be focused on the emotions. On the, the, the tone. You'll be focused on the language. Absolutely.

[00:55:38] Greg: I can tell you that my relationship with my wife got significantly better because all of a sudden it wasn't, you don't get me anymore. It was like, aha.

[00:55:47] Greg: It's my responsibility for you to get me. Yeah. And if I adopt that mindset, she's more likely to get me.

[00:55:55] Josh: Both of our wives are very happy that we wrote this book because, and whenever we would edit it, we'd [00:56:00] read through the chapters again and we would just, you know, take examples from our lives to think about.

[00:56:04] Josh: 'cause there's, there's some prompts in each chapter, you know, as, as you know, Cody to, to kind of think through to make it real. And, uh, even if you're just reflecting for like 30 seconds, like, and, and so frequently the first thing that would come to my mind, something with my wife, right? And there were just, there have been so many things that are just not issues anymore as a result of, essentially it's a way to kind of guide us through using NLB techniques, just by kind of reading the chapter.

[00:56:28] Josh: At the end of the day,

[00:56:30] Greg: most disagreements between people or results of misunderstandings. And if we take responsibility as hours for clearing up those misunderstandings, our everyday life will get significantly easier.

[00:56:45] CODY: Hmm. So it seems that NLP places a lot of emphasis on, on rapport. So what kind of techniques might somebody, uh, implement to build it quickly or even to recognize that, that they're not in rapport with somebody?

[00:56:58] Josh: Mm-hmm. [00:57:00] Rapport starts with getting in sync in NLP, that it's like, we'll use the terms mirroring and matching. Uh, and I, and I think at first when people are learning this, it's a little wonky, like what you were saying before about like, well, this person's got their arm forward, so I'll try to put my arm forward.

[00:57:17] Josh: One really good piece of advice I got from a very seasoned NLP, um, is that he advises people don't try to match everything. When you're having a conversation, try to make sure you're at least matching. One thing and that you're not matching nothing, right? If you're mismatching, notice that you're really mismatched.

[00:57:38] Josh: Like if the other person's talking fast and you're talking slow, try to become aware of that, right? See if he can speed up a little bit here and there. Maybe not the whole time, right? If the other person is kind of like, you know, looking like kind of a little bit reserved or very serious, this is one that gets me a lot.

[00:57:56] Josh: I'll come in and I'll have a smile on my face and the other person has a very serious face, and at first [00:58:00] I won't notice, and then I'll realize, wait a second, there's a different kind of emotional energy coming from this person's face. Let me see what happens if I sort of match that. And I do, and I don't.

[00:58:11] Josh: You know, is it the mimicry? And, you know, nobody knows for certain there's been, but we do know there's, there's, you know, robust evidence that people feel more in sync for whatever reason. When you do that, one of the things I notice is that I. It changes my breathing a little bit. It changes what I'm focused on.

[00:58:29] Josh: It changes whether I'm trying to make this a happy moment. It changes whether I care about the other person thinking I'm nice. Like all of these things start to happen in my mind and I become more open to what the other person's actually putting forward. Probably those things are happening unconsciously for anyone when they start to take on a little bit.

[00:58:49] Josh: You, Cody, you're kind of like, you know, if I try to take on your position, I, you know, some, somehow I see you on Zoom, right? I can still do some of that even though we're not in the same room. [00:59:00] And a few things shift in terms of my feelings and in terms of what I'm paying attention to. And I realized, oh, let me pause and listen to what Cody's saying, or Let me pause and make space for Greg.

[00:59:09] Josh: You know that that's happening. 'cause you seem to be someone who's kind of pausing and making space and I feel, and may, I don't know if you do, but I feel more rapport doing that. So getting in sync physically is this first step or physiologically. Also getting in sync in terms of points of connection, things we may agree on or things, common experiences that also shows that has been shown to help build rapport.

[00:59:34] Greg: There's also predicate, for example, if you're speaking to somebody and they're a very visual person, I see what you're saying. The picture is, it's probably you're not gonna be very effective if you come at 'em being, uh, you know, auditory or saying, I hear you. What do you say? So that's one of the things you try to meet.

[00:59:56] Greg: One of the concepts of NP is try to meet people where they are. [01:00:00] And if you are a visual person, let's be visual together. If you're an auditory person, let's be auditory together. If you're an aesthetic or talk about feelings, I'll try to talk about feelings. Right. I guess it's, uh, the best way from my perspective to describe NLP is meeting people where they live.

[01:00:17] Greg: Not trying to, uh, influence them improperly, not trying to trick 'em, not trying to lead 'em anywhere they then want to go, but just meet 'em where they are. Because when you meet people where they are, they're more likely to be influenced if they know you're coming from a good place and you're meeting them at their place, I.

[01:00:35] Josh: You communicate to them your truth. I accept, I acknowledge the truth that you live in. Right. You know, and that could be something specific. Like, you know, somebody has a belief about some political thing, like, and be like, okay, yeah. You know, I know you have that belief and, and I know there are people who can have that, right?

[01:00:53] Josh: You can meet them where they are. Doesn't mean you have to take on their belief, but a lot of times it's just, it's you're meeting them where they are in terms of like, [01:01:00] yeah, this is a really difficult moment. Right? Or I'm, you know, someone's afraid of something and it's an irrational fear. Well it, they're still afraid you can meet them there and be like, yeah, I can see this is a big deal for you.

[01:01:12] Josh: Right? And you could even have some energy, you know, if someone's super agitated and you try to get super calm, you're not really meeting them where they are. But if you're, like, if you're acknowledging that their reality that they're really agitated, you meet them where they are. And what happens is people feel seen and feel heard, and then they're more likely to trust you and.

[01:01:33] Josh: Follow you wherever you want to go. Right. To explore some other way of being or saying things or thinking.

[01:01:39] CODY: What this reminds me of is that often we're in situations, maybe we feel a little bit heated and we disagree with somebody, and then we, we wanna argue with them. It's like our, our Olympic system takes over, right?

[01:01:51] CODY: We, we stop thinking and we get into this emotional state. But what, what I hear is that NLP, it's. Trying to, to pause that, [01:02:00] trying to limit that instant reaction and trying to understand that, okay, what's the outcome that I want? What's a positive outcome for this situation? And then being able to prevent yourself from going down the, this whole emotional rabbit hole.

[01:02:14] CODY: And from seeing them, maybe I should mimic kind of their, their communication. I should, I should have a pace, I should have a certain lead. I shouldn't go all out. So what advice do you have in situations where you might feel emotional and how do you implement these kind of like this, this NLP pacing or mirroring?

[01:02:32] CODY: Uh, especially because it's difficult when you're in these situations. You're communicating with somebody, uh, and it's, it's hard to try to like take a step back and try to see that the end goal and how to get there.

[01:02:44] Josh: Am I right that you have situations in your life where you get triggered and there's an emotion that you wish you could just stop and then you could be more rational and approach the situation.

[01:02:56] Josh: Like break that state? Is that, is that right?

[01:02:59] CODY: I [01:03:00] think we all have those situations and I would reframe that and say that if I'm feeling something, it doesn't mean it's the wrong emotion. So I still wanna validate how I'm feeling. Right. And, and recognize that because that's important somehow, but to not let that take over, right?

[01:03:13] CODY: Because we often let these feelings take over and then we end up in these situations where we later have to apologize to the person and it, it caused irreparable harm to our, our relationship after that kind of interaction. So I know that's probably a separate field, perhaps like IT and a CBT or, or, or behavioral therapy, but, um, are there any techniques in terms of how we might look at this from an NLP lens?

[01:03:36] Josh: Yeah, absolutely. One thing that I would explore is to try, so I asked you that question, um, and that's, I think the first place to start is like, well, let's try to understand what exactly is at stake or is it issue? And, and there was some clarity that you provided, which is. Um, you know, I don't wanna deny that emotion or I don't wanna suggest that it shouldn't be having that emotion, right.

[01:03:58] Josh: That or validate the emotion. Right? Yeah. [01:04:00] So maybe it's not about necessarily stopping it in the moment. Um, maybe it's using the emotion differently. Sometimes people feel like they should stop the emotion, but actually it's the right thing for them or it's the appropriate thing and they should get mad and they should shout and they should.

[01:04:15] Josh: There's a time and a place, right? But what we would do is we would try to explore, okay, what is it actually that you are looking to do? And, you know, in this, and maybe it's not in every context, maybe it's really, you know, with this particular person I've found, I get triggered, I've lost my cool and it's harm the relationship in a way.

[01:04:34] Josh: I don't wanna deal with any, don't wanna keep doing that. I want to have a new, kind of new reaction. And so one of the things in NLP that we might help the person do, I. Is identify, um, the, the process leading right up to that, like we would model the dysfunctional behavior using the same tools we would to model excellence.

[01:04:56] Josh: Teach me how you do that. Help me go through the mental [01:05:00] processes and the physiological process. What would I have to believe and think in every moment to be able to react exactly how you have to this person? Once we've unpacked that, then we have a lot of choices about what we could change, whether it's a physical thing that I'm doing or whether it's how quickly I'm reacting to something or whether I'm inserting a new skill like an.

[01:05:21] Josh: Pause and something that helps me remember some memory that really quickly shifts me into a different perspective. Maybe it's just a way that I break the state. Um, we had an example in that where, in the book of Greg giving himself a wet Willie in, you know, in the ER to break a certain state. But, so once we've unpacked how you're going about behaving in the way you don't like to the dis you know, what you'd like to change, then we can be much more thoughtful about identifying specifically what it's, and then we have the entire panoply of tools from NLP, whether it's a cognitive shift, you know, or whether it's a behavioral shift or whether it's something where you're shifting what we call the [01:06:00] submodalities.

[01:06:00] Josh: These, these images you might have in your mind, whether it's, you know, something where there's, uh. An inner conflict that needs addressing, um, whether, you know, there's a younger version of yourself that you know, you need to give metaphorically, give resources to that the adult you have, there's, there'd just be so many avenues.

[01:06:18] Josh: But until we unpack that, which doesn't need to take long to unpack, but until we do, we wouldn't know specifically what to start exploring. But ultimately it would be possible to find the difference that makes the difference. So you really could have a different automatic way of responding to that person and be much less likely to go down the same old road.

[01:06:38] Greg: What is also very useful is to recognize that what we're seeing is patterns. We're not seeing people being good, bad. We're seeing people exhibiting patterns. And the trick is we're able to recognize the pattern and identify it. That's half the battle because if you can isolate the pattern, then you can break it.

[01:06:59] Greg: And once [01:07:00] you can break it, you can replace it with something more empowering.

[01:07:03] Josh: Now, I was also hearing a kind of a desire for a concrete tool right here. What do we do in that context? Because as you've pointed out, probably most people have an experience like that. Here's one thing that may be relevant for many people, it may be for you.

[01:07:16] Josh: I'm gonna invite you to remember right now a situation like this where there is a person who does something or has said something and you, you weren't happy with your reaction, you lost it, right? And right now I'd like you gonna invite you and you may wanna do this, you know, for a moment in your mind.

[01:07:33] Josh: You can even close your eyes, even though we're right here being recorded, you know, and allow yourself to, you can hear my voice or you can just let it go as you kinda step out now into the third person perspective. 'cause meanwhile, we mentioned that before, and I don't know if you wanna see yourself as a fly on the wall, um, you know, or maybe even.

[01:07:52] Josh: Buzzing around outside of the window looking through, so you can't even hear what's happening inside. And you look over and you see Cody and you see that other [01:08:00] person, and you can allow them to have their feelings, can't you? You don't need to take them on. As you are feeling the pleasantness and the freedom of being outside the window observing these two interesting individuals, what's a resource that would be valuable for Cody to have in this moment?

[01:08:21] Josh: Just looking from the outside and what, in whatever way it may be coming up to you, you can be aware of that, even if it doesn't make sense at first.

[01:08:31] CODY: I'm not sure if you're asking me a specific question, but I I see the, the, the point of that is to step outside of your immediate emotional state and to look at it from a different perspective, maybe from the, the perspective of a fly or another person.

[01:08:48] CODY: And it's, perhaps it's just a disassociate just for a second to see perhaps how ridiculous or the nature of that situation so that you can get kind of a big picture [01:09:00] perspective. And the, the thing I often do in kind of any stressful situation, uh, like if a, a plane gets delayed or, you know, canceled or, you know, the, all those stressful situations in an airport is, I like to use a 10, 10, 10 technique where I look at, is this gonna matter 10 minutes, 10 hours, 10 days, 10 weeks, 10 months from now?

[01:09:16] CODY: And for me, that's the technique that helps me put that situation in perspective. Um, so it is in some ways what you're describing with this fly technique is that kind of one of those techniques to help remove the emotional salience of the situation so that you're able to, um, kind of redirect in a more positive direction.

[01:09:37] Josh: Mm-hmm. And the 10, 10, 10 is, is moving in terms of. Distance in time. This one is moving in terms of distance in space and they're both forms of disassociation and uh, and they're both really nice ways, nice things to do. Um, yeah, so there is that parallel and you specifically mentioned, oh, it helps me see it as ridiculous and it makes me wonder, is [01:10:00] that a resource that would be valuable to you in that context?

[01:10:03] Josh: Should that specific context come up in the future to be able to quickly think, wow, this is ridiculous?

[01:10:08] Hmm.

[01:10:09] Josh: It is okay. And it is possible then for you to learn to have access to that ability to see something as ridiculous much more quickly so that you can kind of have it on demand and you can even start to build it into your habit so that you know you can practice being triggered by that person and instantly seeing it as ridiculous.

[01:10:31] Josh: And I wonder, and you may wish to close your eyes right now, just for a moment, and as you imagine in the future, what happens when you experience this person doing something like that again, some point in the future, and you, instead of the old reaction, you experience it as ridiculous. You see it as ridiculous in whatever way it makes most sense.

[01:10:54] CODY: Hmm. Yeah. I, I see that, uh, seeing, seeing the situation, [01:11:00] say if it happens in the future, it's, in some ways it's training my brain, right? I'm training myself for a future potential situation, and I'm thinking about how I might react differently. And I, I think perhaps is what you're saying is that if, if that's another technique to imagine ourselves in this future situation.

[01:11:21] CODY: And if we can do that, then we are, are creating the neurons for reacting in a different way. With that person in the future.

[01:11:30] Josh: Yeah, a lot of that same circuitry is gonna happen in the moment as you were using here. Not a perfect overlap, but there will be. You're practicing it already, you're laying, you're, you know, creating a path of least resistance and, you know, you know, so there was one technique was going to disassociate perspective and just exploring what do I see dispassionately.

[01:11:50] Josh: There was another, there was then specifically saying what resource would be useful? And then you mentioned one, and we explored, we did something in NLP we call future pacing. We go into the [01:12:00] future and we help the person, you know, see what happens when they're doing this other thing in the future. And, uh, you know, in your case, my sense was that, yeah, that would work for you.

[01:12:10] Josh: You'd like to try that. Um, and yeah. Okay. And if a person wouldn't, you know, there's a, there's this wonderful idea in NLP of something being ecological. Does it fit within the larger ecosystem of me, of my mind? Right. And if it doesn't, well. My mind will let me know. Right? No, I can't do that. If I did that, maybe I wouldn't stand up for myself.

[01:12:31] Josh: Okay, well then this person wants a way to see it as ridiculous, where they still stand up for themselves and you build that in. Um, but, uh, but yeah, just going to that third person perspective, the fly on the wall or even outside the window looking in, letting the other person having their feelings and just looking at it from the outside, you know, what would be something useful for this guy?

[01:12:52] Josh: That guy over there, that's a tool that people can do. I used a little bit of hypnotic language in that just to kind [01:13:00] of help us, you know, help you be open to exploring the ideas I was suggesting without just dismissing them outta hand. Um, mm-hmm. And, uh, but I could not, there's no way that I can control your thoughts and just making suggestions.

[01:13:14] Josh: And anyone listening could probably hear that. I'm just making suggestions, like, and then you explored them.

[01:13:20] CODY: I love that. I think there's so much potential in people shifting their, their emotional state or their thoughts or their communication with another person with really any number of those, of these techniques.

[01:13:33] CODY: So it, it makes me next wonder, are these something that somebody can implement just by reading a book? Do they have to go to a course? It seems like you speak Josh from the perspective of like a therapist. Is it something I should go to a therapist if I want to implement these techniques? Kind of what advice do you have for somebody who might be really interested in this?

[01:13:53] Josh: We worked hard, and I think this is part of the why it was such a good collaboration between Greg and me. [01:14:00] So the NLP stuff was there for 50 years. What we spent the last couple of years doing was focusing our attention on how do we make it so anybody with no background at all in therapy or no background at all in NLP can use it right now?

[01:14:14] Josh: Understand it and use it right now while reading the book. Don't need to do anything else. Right. And that was very much our intention with everything, single piece that we were doing. Our endorsers, um, for the book certainly seem to think so. And you know, our publisher and the people that, uh, you know, have gotten a chance to see early copies, I guess you've gotten a chance to see an early copy.

[01:14:35] Josh: So, uh, Steve might have a perspective on that as well. But that was very much what we've done and very much what we believe we have succeeded at doing.

[01:14:43] Greg: One of our major objectives was to make it accessible. One of the largest difficulties with most books dealing with NLP. They're unreadable. I tried reading several of them before I got certified and it was [01:15:00] virtually impossible.

[01:15:00] Greg: So, so Josh and I had this dichotomy of a PhD and an everyday guy, so when he would write a chapter, I would take it and I would dumb it down. And when I would write a chapter, he would take it and say, no, that's just too dumb. We got, we gotta make a little more highbrow. And he would, uh, bring it up. And we have a such a nice give and take where I really believe this book is accessible to everyone.

[01:15:30] Greg: I, I was, uh, in Europe with my family last week from my daughter's high school graduation, and I brought the book with me and I reread it. And even though I wrote it and we wrote it, and I've read it several times, I still got something new out of it. This book really, I don't wanna say a living document because it makes it sound more than it is, but it is, there's really something in it for everyone.

[01:15:57] Greg: And one of, I just wanna address something you said, [01:16:00] Cody, you said, how do we do it? At the end of every chapter, there's a workbook. It's then again repeated in the appendix at the end, so there's actual exercises there. One of the biggest problems I found with self-help books is analysis paralysis. People read the book, but they don't do anything with it.

[01:16:20] Greg: They take the information, but information is not power. Use of the information is power, and this book encourages our readers to use the information. And, you know, in their everyday life and get into their muscle. And, and, and that's huge.

[01:16:37] Josh: We specifically wanted this book to be something that if you're someone who's just like, I just wanna read a book and then like, absorb what I absorb and have some useful things, you can, like, you can just listen to the book right?

[01:16:47] Josh: While you're exercising. The questions Greg is referring to, a lot of them are also embedded throughout the text. So it's just like, you're like, for, you know, we, we explained something and then we're like, for example, think about a situation right now where you have someone [01:17:00] where you weren't barely happy with how the conversation ended.

[01:17:03] Josh: Right? Now, answer this question for yourself. Okay? And now answer this question for yourself and you could just reflect on it for a few seconds while you're out there jogging, right? That is taking you through using the tool that you've just learned about in the book, you know, and, and we give examples of it as well.

[01:17:19] Josh: And then that those exact same questions are what you find if you go to the end of the book in the appendix where it's organized as a workbook. So you could then have another situation in the future where you're like, oh yeah, I'd like to try it with this situation. You flip to that part of the appendix and you can take yourself through that.

[01:17:34] Josh: So it's like for people who just wanna listen to the book and think, or for people who wanna write down things, or for people who really want it as a workbook format to come back to multiple times is designed to enable each of those things. And because in each chapter what we've done is there's just a handful of questions to reflect on.

[01:17:51] Josh: Respond. That's why anyone can just do it. Um, you know, without needing to actually be an expert. I mean, there were some things you saw [01:18:00] me do. I think that may have also prompted the question that Yeah, you wouldn't, it's hard to do that yourself. 'cause I'm here and I can guide you and I can pick up on the fact that you said this and that and ask a follow up question.

[01:18:11] Josh: Um, but what people can do is they can notice what I was doing. Just pay a little more attention and pick up, oh, you said ridiculous. Was that meaningful? Right. You know, it turned out it was right. But that kind of attitude is one thing that when you read the chapter, chapter 10, it helps you take on that attitude more.

[01:18:30] Josh: And then when you read chapters 11 through 15, it gives you really specific things to focus on and look for in a conversation and ask about.

[01:18:37] CODY: Yeah, I, I love that. And I think the, the collaboration between you guys is, is perfect from practical stories, insights that, uh, that people can actually relate to and apply.

[01:18:47] CODY: And then the science to really back that up and in a relation to reading a book, I think is true. We don't retain a lot of what we read, but the best strategy I found that kind of optimizes like the amount of [01:19:00] time that you're spending and trying to learn is if I'm running and I'm listening to a podcast, or if I'm reading and I come across something that's insightful, I'll often highlight that.

[01:19:08] CODY: But I'll often pause and think about that. And I think it's when you pause and think about something that you're applying it internally and that can help create a more substantial shift than just reading. Reading alone.

[01:19:21] Josh: Yeah. Yes, we very much follow that principle too.

[01:19:25] CODY: So before we sign off, I'd love to ask the both of you kind of what, what do you hope will be the difference that this book makes for, for those who read it in the, in the world of, of personal development or, or in general.

[01:19:39] Greg: I believe that most self-help books or form of N-L-P-I-I, I really believe that. I, I believe, for example, I'll give you an example from my professional life. Uh, Josh and I were in a, uh, training in Las Vegas training, a group of very, very [01:20:00] successful trial lawyers through from all over the country. And one of the things trial lawyers are taught is to appreciate the other person's point of view.

[01:20:09] Greg: They call it POV and everyone tells you how to do these things. And a lot of these books, how to take somebody's POV, how to walk a mile of somebody else's shoes, but they don't really tell you the steps. The little chunks, the actual clues that you need to follow to get there. And NOP has, at least for me, made a tremendous difference.

[01:20:30] Greg: It made me a better lawyer, a better father, a better husband, a better friend, a better human being because it made me more empathetic. It made me appreciate the model of the world that other people are living. It made me less ethnocentric when it comes to my model of the world. It made me appreciate that the way I view the world is not necessarily the right way, it's just the way I view it.

[01:20:52] Greg: And everybody out there has something to teach me. You do, Cody, Josh does every one of you listeners. Everyone is an expert [01:21:00] in something. And if we can appreciate what that is, we can enrich our lives and their lives in the process.

[01:21:07] Josh: I think NLP is something that I really want all people to know about.

[01:21:13] Josh: These are tools that have like, can so dramatically and so quickly improve lives. Everyone can use them. Right. We're, you know, we didn't invent this stuff, right? We're the messengers here. I want my family to have this and use it, right? I want the people who I've worked with to have this and use this, right?

[01:21:35] Josh: I want like, all school kids to be using these. Like, this is good stuff. Like this is, it's like, it's a shame that people don't know about it or that, because there were like some things 30 years ago where there was like somebody being, you know, you know, unethical with it. That, that, you know, people were like, okay, let, let me just walk away somewhere.

[01:21:55] Josh: Well now let, let's come back to it because this stuff is wonderful, [01:22:00] right? You can really make a lot of changes in your life in very positive ways, and it doesn't need to just be hidden and kept for a handful of people. So, you know, this. This book needs, needs to happen, in my opinion. Um, and we're in a very fortunate position to be the ones who get to do it.

[01:22:19] CODY: Powerful words. I, I couldn't agree more. It's, it's a shame they don't teach this in school because, as you said, I think this is a very powerful technique to help shift our mindset, and that's really one of the most important things we can have in life. It helps us through the ups and the downs and throughout our entire lives is our perspective.

[01:22:39] CODY: And being able to understand that that's not something that we just have to confront. That's something that we can have a role. Shaping and that can have this downstream effect in so many aspects of our lives, and especially the lives of those around us. So I think definitely what you guys are doing is [01:23:00] important work.

[01:23:00] CODY: So thank you Josh, and Greg for sharing your insights and your passion. Uh, I think our listeners will come away with a new understanding of how powerful language and mindset can be in shaping our reality. And more importantly, that I think anyone can learn to use these tools to improve their life. So for those listening, if you found this intriguing, definitely check out their book The Difference That Makes the Difference, which is packed with exercises and examples we couldn't even get into today.

[01:23:27] CODY: And of course, we'll have the links in the show notes. So thank you for everyone for tuning into Mind Hack. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share it with someone who might benefit. Until next time, remember. Sometimes the smallest change makes the biggest difference. Take care.