[00:00:00] JAY: What separates the people who get what they want and the people who don't, isn't necessarily impressive skill or credentials or talent. Just the fact that they had the courage to try the handle. And what you'll find is if you do try the handle, you'll realize that a lot of doors are unlocked. 

[00:00:17] CODY: Mind Hack is a podcast about the psychology of performance, behavior change, and self optimization.

[00:00:24] CODY: Each episode explores how to think better, works smarter and lies more intentionally through conversations with top thinkers, entrepreneurs, and scientists.

[00:00:39] CODY: Welcome to the Mind Hack Podcast, where we explore the psychology of self-improvement and mindset to help you live a happier and more fulfilled life. Have you ever found yourself waiting for the perfect moment to start something? Maybe you're waiting for more experience or the right credentials or, or simply for someone to give you the green light?[00:01:00] 

[00:01:00] CODY: What if I told you that the most successful people in the world never waited for permission at all? Today I'm joined by Jay Yang, an entrepreneur, content strategist, an author of the upcoming book. You could just do things, the Power of Permissionless Action. By age 16, Jay was cold emailing CEOs and landing opportunities that most people would spend years working towards.

[00:01:23] CODY: By 19, he had built six figure business, grown an online following of over 200,000 and published more than 1200 pieces of content. What make Jay's story so fascinating isn't just what he accomplished, but how he did it by taking bold strategic action without waiting for anyone's approval. Today, we'll unpack the mindset and methods behind permissionless action and how you can apply them in your own life.

[00:01:49] CODY: Jay, welcome to the show. 

[00:01:52] JAY: Appreciate you having me on. Cody, that was a super awesome intro. Appreciate it. 

[00:01:57] CODY: Yeah, you're welcome. And so can you take us [00:02:00] back to when you cold emailed beehive's, CEO, at age 16? Kinda what happened? What went through your head? 

[00:02:08] JAY: Yeah, I'll kind of backtrack. So my entire journey started during COVID-19.

[00:02:15] JAY: Um, at the time I was playing video games for five hours a day. Um. And honestly, just one day I remember looking in the mirror and not being proud of what I saw, uh, not being proud of the actions I was taking. And so that day I literally googled how to make money online. And one of those things was start a YouTube music promotion channel.

[00:02:38] JAY: So the entire summer of Covid, um, I started a music promotion channel where I would smell underground artist songs to help them grow on YouTube. Um, I did a song every single day, sometimes two a day. Uh, didn't really go anywhere, but at the end of the summer there was one motivational song that absolutely blew up.

[00:02:58] JAY: It got a million plus views. It [00:03:00] skyrocketed my channel, and I remember scrolling through the comments and seeing this one comment that said, I don't know why this seems so big, but this song motivated me to get out of bed and shower. And that just hit me like a ton of bricks because, you know, this was in Covid during Covid.

[00:03:17] JAY: You know, it was a, it was a dark time period. A lot of people felt lonely and depressed, and it made me realize that little old me from my childhood bedroom could actually impact and inspire people. And so I fell in love with content creation. I started to dive deeper into what does it mean to inspire somebody?

[00:03:35] JAY: How do we actually change behavior? What is the psychology behind that? And as I dove down the rabbit hole, I discovered things like copywriting, things like online business, things like personal growth. The more I fell into it, the more I fell in love with it. Um, and so how I came to Cold Tyler Dek, uh, B-F-C-E-O was after starting that music promotion YouTube channel, I started a whole bunch of different ventures.

[00:03:59] JAY: I [00:04:00] started Instagram theme pages. I started clothing brand. Uh, I tried to grow on Twitter. None of it was really sticking and. I sat down with my mom one day and I was like, you know, things just, things just aren't clicking. Like, why? And she said, maybe you should try working for, for someone else for a little bit.

[00:04:18] JAY: Um, maybe you'll learn something from them that you can take onto your own entrepreneurial journey. She said, why not do this, pick your favorite company and go try and work for them. And this was, I believe it was the summer after sophomore year of high school. And so I didn't really have a resume. I didn't even know what that was.

[00:04:35] JAY: I didn't have any credentials or experience, but I knew that I loved beehive 'cause I had been writing a newsletter on their platform. And from an outside in perspective, the way they shipped features was incredibly, incredibly fast. They shipped a new feature probably every every week. Um, and so I went on their website.

[00:04:53] JAY: I was like, maybe they have like an internship opportunity. They didn't have that. There was no job application on their website. [00:05:00] Um. So I realized that if I wanted to get this opportunity, I had to do something different. And so that's when I came with the idea of creating a pitch deck. And instead of asking how can I help or I'll work for you for free, I put together a pitch deck with three project ideas that I would do over the summer, three ideas that I could help beehive.

[00:05:21] JAY: Um, I sent it over to Tyler. I said, you know, if you like these ideas, I'll work. I'll do it for free. And I just wanna help. Um, if you don't like these ideas, no harm, no foul. You don't even have to respond. Uh, luckily he did respond and, um, I guess the rest is history. 

[00:05:38] CODY: Yeah. And so what you described this, this willingness to reach out, I think that is is the perfect example of kind of the new reality that I think we're in.

[00:05:50] CODY: That if you want to get ahead, if you want to have a job at a successful, fast-growing company, you need to differentiate yourself. So many people [00:06:00] are applying for a job that just have that bland resume and they don't really stick out. And so when you do something like this, when you create something of value and you show it to them and say, Hey, you know, do you think this is cool?

[00:06:13] CODY: Uh, and then that is, that is that level of, of. Permission that you're, you're probably seeking. And so from that, what, what happened after you sent out this email to, to beehive? 

[00:06:25] JAY: So after I sent the email to Beehive, um, Tyler loved the ideas. He said, you know, uh, we'll take some time. We'll get back to, he connected me with the head of growth, um, at Beehive.

[00:06:36] JAY: And then, uh, from there I started working with them and it was an amazing opportunity and experience. I spent the summer working on Beehive 1 0 1, which was a course that helped beehive's users better understand, unlock and maximize the beehive platform. Um, and yeah, I think the biggest thing that I've learned from Tyler and beehive was firstly how, how to actually [00:07:00] operate at a fast, fast growing startup.

[00:07:02] JAY: And I mean, before then I, I would say I was hardworking, but I didn't actually get stuff done right. There was a lot of input. A lot of powers worked, but not a lot of output, not a lot of results. And I think working at Beehive taught me the power of not just tracking your input, but also tracking your output.

[00:07:19] JAY: Like what did you actually get done? And so, um, after beehive, I'd say my productivity or my output of work definitely doubled or tripled. 

[00:07:30] CODY: Can you say what specifically you learned that allowed you to increase your output? 

[00:07:36] JAY: Yeah, the biggest thing was that they worked in two week sprints and this was a concept that, uh, was foreign to me at the time.

[00:07:44] JAY: And I, I believe the reason it works is because of Parkinson's law, which is, you know, work expands the time allotted, given to its completion. And so by decreasing the time you give yourself and setting hard deadlines, um, you force yourself to get that stuff done faster and more efficiently. [00:08:00] And for someone like me, who, uh, I get really stressed and I wanna get stuff done and get ahead, uh, having those even artificial deadlines really pushed me to, to maximize what I could get done.

[00:08:12] CODY: So your story is different than the average path, and I, I know you're Asian, so you have Asian parents, and there's a stereotype that you're gonna, you're gonna be a lawyer, you're gonna be a doctor. I, I'm curious to hear your, your perspective in terms of your parents and what they think about this path that you're, that you're, that you're going on that's so different than I think so many other, uh, fledgling smart individuals.

[00:08:39] JAY: I do have to preface this by saying I have two of the most extremely supportive and loving parents, um, and patient. And so, uh, I do think they're slightly different than most Asian parents in that traditional sense. Um, I will say, obviously, you know, parents just want me to be safe and secure, and [00:09:00] so taking risks and shooting your shot and doing unconventional things, uh, obviously will worry them slightly and so.

[00:09:07] JAY: If for anyone who's in a similar situation, uh, the best way to show your parents, uh, that it's okay to take the unconventional path is exactly what I said is to show it instead of telling them all the reasons why you should do this or shouldn't do that. Um, I think showing them and showing them the results so that you have undeniable proof that.

[00:09:29] JAY: You are who you say you are and the work that you do, um, is actually meaningful and contributing to, to the world. And so, um, that would be my advice for them. 

[00:09:39] CODY: Yeah, it so lucky that you have supportive parents that are willing to, to support you in this different type of type of journey that can be full of failure and success.

[00:09:51] CODY: But I think most of all, the important thing is to have something that feels meaningful since so many people go through their lives just at a job or that they have a degree and then [00:10:00] they realize they just don't care about it. So, so really kudos to you for really understanding that this is where your interests lie.

[00:10:07] CODY: Um, and so now you're 19, you are in college. Uh, tell us where you are now, kind of where, where do you plan to go? What's your vision for the future? 

[00:10:18] JAY: So right now, I. Uh, I'm a freshman in college. I'm 19, and I would say I'm in a learning phase of my life. Um, the thing I like to think about is, number one, what do I want to have happen?

[00:10:34] JAY: Number two, what do I have to learn in order for that to happen? And number three, who do I have to connect with or learn from in order to learn those things? And then number four, what do I have to do in order to connect with those people, to learn those things, to do that thing? So, uh, my North Star vision, and this is something I talk about in the book, is, um, a fit body, a [00:11:00] calm mind, a house full of love.

[00:11:02] JAY: Meaningful work and enough wealth to not have to worry about it. These things can't be bought. They must be earned. And it's a playoff in NA All's quote. And it's, it's broad, it's vague, it's very distant, and I think that's on purpose. I think these five things are not arbitrary goals as you hit. I think they're lifelong pursuits that you continually get better at.

[00:11:21] JAY: So with that North Star goal in mind, I'm constantly asking myself, does this opportunity align with that North Star vision? And so working with Beehive, working with Noah, you know, running an agency, doing all these things, they, they did align with that vision. And I think that's what a lot of people my age are missing is they take on opportunities because, you know, it'll make.

[00:11:44] JAY: $2 an hour, more than another opportunity without actually thinking about number one, what do they want to have happen? And number two, does this opportunity align with that? 

[00:11:54] CODY: Hmm. So, so well said. I, I, are there any, any books, [00:12:00] anybody's ideologies, philosophies that have kind of influenced you to, to understand this at such a young age?

[00:12:08] JAY: I think the most influential books on my life, uh, that have influenced specifically this, uh, philosophy have honestly been biographies, biographies of other founders, of other entrepreneurs, other athletes, um, people who were in the pursuit of their definition of greatness. And just by learning about their story and their early life, uh, was very reassuring to me.

[00:12:30] JAY: Um, and that's kind of what I, why my book, you can just do things is not. A book full of self-help tactics and hacks and tricks, but they're, they're story-based chapters. And it's a story-based book. It's, uh, 20 chapters filled with stories, uh, from people throughout history who have applied this permissionless approach to their life and to their career to create opportunities.

[00:12:52] JAY: Um, because I, I think, uh, one of my favorite quotes from Morgan Housel is on how to read books, is [00:13:00] memorize the stories. I like the facts and skip the fluff. And so I've tried to make this book as compact as possible. It's only 150 pages, uh, filled with a lot of stories and a lot of facts and a lot of frameworks, and not a lot of that, you know, guru hack kind of stuff.

[00:13:16] CODY: Right, right. Yeah. And we re we relate so much more to, to people's stories and we can see ourselves. Those other people. And I think that's partly what can give us a level of confidence to try things that we haven't tried before. But, but so in your book Yeah. You talk about how most people are trapped behind, invisible, these, these permission structures, if you will.

[00:13:40] CODY: So, so why do most of us feel like we need permission to start something or permission to, to go get something? 

[00:13:47] JAY: I think it was how we were raised and how we grew up in school. We were taught that, you know, you have to raise your hand to go to the bathroom and that there's only one right answer, you know, raise your hand before you speak.

[00:13:58] JAY: And we were taught that we need permission [00:14:00] to do these things. And so just like, uh, there's a, there's a parable about, uh, a, a traveler and he goes to Africa and he, he's walking through these villages and he sees this huge elephant tied up to this tiny, skinny. Twig this, this little tiny piece of wood in the, in the, in the ground.

[00:14:18] JAY: And so he asked the trainer, he says, you know, why is this elephant just breaking free and running around? And the trainer goes on to tell him that, you know, when these elephants were babies, they were tied to this twig. And they tried, you know, they tried to break free, but they couldn't because at the time they weren't strong enough.

[00:14:35] JAY: And so they grew up always assuming that they didn't have the strength. To break free. And so then they stopped trying. And I think that goes the same with a lot of people in life, is they, because we grew up in a certain, we were conditioned a certain way. We, we end up stop trying, we end up thinking that we are capable enough.

[00:14:53] JAY: And so, um, that's why I love the phrase, you can just do things. It's, it's more of a mantra to me as well, um, that [00:15:00] what you want is not out of reach. And the, the, the another analogy I like to use is most people walk past. The doors of opportunities, assuming that the handles are locked and what separates the people who get what they want and the people who don't, isn't necessarily impressive skill or credentials or talent, but just the fact that they had the courage to try the handle.

[00:15:24] JAY: And what you'll find is if you do try the handle, you'll realize that a lot of doors are unlocked. 

[00:15:31] CODY: Yeah. Yeah. And, and there's a point I think in life, you know, when you're a kid. You look at, you look at your parents and they, they mean so much to you, like they are superheroes. We all feel this towards our parents, but then kind of as we grow up, we start to see kind, kind of the foibles within our parents, and we also start to see.

[00:15:52] CODY: The, the issues with other people around us that in essence, I, I love the, I love this concept that everybody's [00:16:00] winging it. You know, it's like, it doesn't matter where somebody is in their position, you know, when you're a kid, you kind of idolize people in certain positions. But I think the more you grow up, the more you realize that they're no smarter than me.

[00:16:11] CODY: They're not necessarily any more accomplished than I could be. We set these internal limits on ourselves, so we never even try, we never even make, make the, make the throw the ball, try to get into the hoop because we, we feel like we're just not capable of it from the exact start. And I, I've seen so many people and been asked by so many questions about people who are, are working for a company and I could see, hey, you have a talent for this May, maybe you should start.

[00:16:39] CODY: Maybe, maybe create an online course. Try to try to see if you can monetize that information. You're so smart at it, but in their mind, they can't even see themselves as being an entrepreneur. They, they can't do these things and they've already decided this internally. And so I, I appreciate and align so much with your message because it's something that we all need.[00:17:00] 

[00:17:00] CODY: We, we, we can fundamentally lack a level of self-esteem that prevents us from making the, the leap to do what we actually wanna do. I mean, that's really what this podcast is about. 

[00:17:10] JAY: Yeah, no, a hundred percent. One of my favorite Steve Jobs quotes, um, and I have it on this book, uh, it's on the first page of my book, and it goes, life can be much broader once you discover one simple fact, and that is.

[00:17:25] JAY: Everything around you that you call life was made up by people that were no smarter than you. And you can change it, you can influence it. You can build your own things that other people can use. 

[00:17:37] CODY: Hmm. And so further in your book, you make an interesting distinction between preparation and waiting. You talk about how a preparation is a hidden superpower.

[00:17:52] CODY: So how do you approach it differently? Than most people. 

[00:17:58] JAY: That's a great question. [00:18:00] The way I think about preparation is, uh, kind of like Tetris. Uh, when you're well positioned, uh, any block can fit in, but when you're poorly positioned, you only need the one right piece to win. Um, and so for me, positioning a lot of people try and predict where they'll be in the future.

[00:18:23] JAY: Um. Positioning to me is about positioning yourself so that no matter what happens, um, you can capitalize and maximize that opportunity because you've built the skills, you've built the network, you've prepared enough. And, um, the difference between, for me, preparation and for productive procrastination is.

[00:18:47] JAY: Are you taking action with that preparation? And so that's why part two of the book is about creation. Um, because preparation will take you from zero to one, but only if you use those skills and learn and use that [00:19:00] knowledge, will that actually implement into your life. Because to me, learning isn't about memorization.

[00:19:05] JAY: Learning is about behavior change. And so if you aren't implementing the books you read or the courses you take, then. To me, that's, that's useless. And so, um, you can prepare as much as you want. And I think preparation is good up into a point, but eventually you have to switch to creation and using that knowledge.

[00:19:23] CODY: Uh, I, I, I love that and align so much as well. I've always had this perspective that you learn best by doing. We spend so much money, say, going to school or in my cases, uh, the amount, a thousand dollars courses I've bought or retreats, or seminars I've been to. I mean, not to say that, that you can't get things from, from these events or these courses, but, but rarely can I say that I, I walked away with something that truly changed my life or that gave me exactly what I needed in that moment.

[00:19:57] CODY: And that for me, that's why I love [00:20:00] books. Just just 30 minutes a day and I can learn so much over a course of a year. And what I love specifically about reading is that you can ask, what issue am I going through right now? Whose help do I need? And then you can just sort of passively learn that information.

[00:20:14] CODY: But I think so often we, we you, you get an MBA, you go to school, you think I need an MBA before I can become an entrepreneur. And most of the entrepreneurs I know, they've, they don't have an MBA. In fact, it was the Chief Operating officer of my company who had the MBA. He had the knowledge of being able to learn how, how do we run the in internal mechanics of the company.

[00:20:36] CODY: But that wasn't what I wanted to do. And so I think we, we often create these boxes for ourselves about what we think we need. In order to have permission to do something. And that's the complete opposite. And I find that just by doing what you're doing, like you're, you're, you're reaching out and you're, you're deciding that you're becoming an entrepreneur at such a young age and, and deciding that you don't know everything that you're [00:21:00] doing.

[00:21:00] CODY: You're putting yourself in a situation where you can learn more. And when you have it, when you have a reason to know, Hey, I need to learn how to do some content marketing. I need to get more followers to my list, the, the knowledge that you gain just by the act of having a meeting, having a reason to, to need, needing to know this, and then it, it enables you to go and learn what you need to know and be before long.

[00:21:23] CODY: You're learning so many of these different skills that just kind of come together and piece together. That give you such a, a broad level of knowledge and experience that you never would've been able to get just by taking a class or some course. 

[00:21:39] JAY: Yeah, no, a hundred percent. Um, one of my clients has this phrase, treat books like prescription drugs.

[00:21:45] JAY: Like, you don't go to the pharmacy and just, I'll take this, I'll take that a little of that. Like, you go in there because you wanna solve a problem. And so, um, I like to think of reading books, uh, similarly, um, thinking about, okay, what, what is the current [00:22:00] bottleneck in my life or in my business or in my career?

[00:22:02] JAY: And how is this book going to solve that and unlock the next level of growth? Um, because otherwise. Um, you know, you can get stuck in that loop of thinking that you need all one more book, one more book before you take action. Um, but like you mentioned, um, you don't learn, then start, you start then learn.

[00:22:20] CODY: Hmm. And, and so is there a specific method or mindset that somebody should have to prepare themselves if they're, if they're trying to prepare themselves for a pitch or trying to take the next action towards starting a business? Or I mean even, how did you gain the, the confidence to say, to, to send an email to, to Noah And in fact, why don't you break down?

[00:22:43] CODY: Um, how did you get Noah Kagan, uh, who's the founder of App Sumo and he was like the, the third or second employee@mint.com. How did you get him to write the forward for your book? Because I know he gets so many, so, so many pitches and people pitching 'em stuff all the time. Um, and what made you [00:23:00] stand out?

[00:23:00] CODY: What kind of preparation did you do? 

[00:23:03] JAY: Noah is Noah's my gag. Noah's amazing. Uh, I can't say enough good things about Noah. Um, that happened after my internship with Beehive. Um, I, I, before beehive, I listened to a podcast called Backstage Careers from someone named Jeremy Mary. Which at the time he was Noah's head of YouTube.

[00:23:24] JAY: And so I DMed Jeremy and I wasn't asking for anything. I just said, Hey, I love your podcast. Like, it inspired me to, you know, reach out to, uh, Tyler. Uh, just wanted to say thank you. We got to talking and he mentioned that Noah was looking for someone to run his email newsletter. And I was like, wow. Like I, I've watched Noah's YouTube videos, I love his stuff.

[00:23:43] JAY: And so I dropped everything and I spent the next 40 hours creating a 19 slide pitch deck, uh, deconstructing his entire social media and email funnel, you know, everything that he was doing wrong, that he could be doing better, everything he was doing okay that could be, uh, improved. [00:24:00] Um, and. I went through his old podcast, his old YouTube videos, his website like studying, like changing the signup flow, like everything.

[00:24:11] JAY: And I put that into a 19 slide pitch deck and I sent it over to Noah. And similar to Tyler, I was like, Hey, like, do you like this? Let's work together. If not, no harm, no foul. Uh, luckily Noah loved it and. From there, we start. I started on a tried paid trial, uh, running his Instagram. He loved it so much.

[00:24:31] JAY: Then he promoted me and I've been his head of content for the past almost, gosh, almost longer than a year now. Um, I. We, we did some pretty amazing things together and I'm grateful to Noah for the opportunity, but I think it all happened because I did the work up front. I didn't DM them and say, Hey, I love YouTube videos.

[00:24:50] JAY: How can I work for you? Or I'll work for free, or, um, just tell me what to do. Because when you do that, it puts the burden on the other person. [00:25:00] They have to figure out who you are, and they also have to figure out how you can help. By doing the work upfront, you show them that, number one, you want the opportunity, and number two, that you can do the opportunity.

[00:25:11] JAY: And so, um, my call to action to anyone is, how can you do the work upfront? How can you make this a no-brainer for the other person? How can you make it so easy to say yes? And so, uh, not only did I send that 19 slide pitch deck to Noah, I also put together nine ready to be published pieces of content where all he had to do was click send.

[00:25:32] JAY: And I said, you know, test these, these are completely free for you. Um, if you like 'em, we'll work together. If not, no worries. And a lot of people are hesitant, like doing free work upfront. What if they take advantage? What if they say no and they just steal my content? Um, my answer to that is always the work works on you more than you work on it.

[00:25:50] JAY: And by doing this process, especially if you're young, and especially if you're early in your career, it builds your portfolio and it builds your skills. And so even if they say no. They may [00:26:00] circle back and it may be a yes in the future, or maybe they said no to this time, but they told you a few things you can improve, and so when you reach out to someone else, now you're improved.

[00:26:09] JAY: Or maybe they say no, but the presentation actually builds your portfolio and then when you try and sign another client or get another job opportunity, now you have multiple different slide decks and proof of thought and proof of work that you can show others. 

[00:26:25] CODY: Hmm. Yeah. And I think when you're putting yourself out there, I mean, if, if you have the mindset that this person might take advantage of me, you're putting yourself in this, this mindset, uh, this kind of protectionist mindset.

[00:26:40] CODY: And I know that, that Reid Hoffman wrote a book, and I'm just forgetting the name of that book that shows like when you, when you do more favors for others, the kind of social, uh, what you get in return is a net positive. 

[00:26:54] JAY: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's, it's, it's by giving up front 

[00:26:59] CODY: and, and, [00:27:00] uh, there, there's something that you mentioned, uh, about, uh, I, I find, I find it interesting that say if you go to a meeting.

[00:27:08] CODY: Uh, you're late to that meeting. Uh, we often tend to say, I'm, I'm, I'm sorry for being late. But when you do that, you're putting the, the o you're, you're putting it on them to accept your apology. So instead you might say, thank you. Uh, thanks for waiting for me. So it's, it's not putting the burden on others, uh, whether it's to say, Hey, I'm willing to work for free.

[00:27:29] CODY: Um, letting them think, okay, well what do I need to do? So you, so you're removing the barriers for them to be able to, to work with you or have the opportunity. So I think that's a lot of what you're talking about is, is putting your foot forward, your foot forward first. Uh, actually making some forward momentum thinking about, uh, how can I minimize the friction between what I want and what they can give me?

[00:27:55] JAY: Yeah, a hundred percent. I, I like to say that the number one skill you can have [00:28:00] as an entrepreneur, marketer, or just human being is empathy. Being able to put yourself in their shoes and think about what they want. Um, a lot of people talk about the golden rule, treat others the way you wanna be treated.

[00:28:11] JAY: Um, but I think there's a rule above that, which is treat others the way they wanna be treated. And it's about putting yourself in their shoes because they may not be wanting to be treated like you wanna be treated. And so, um, doing your research, doing your homework, doing the work upfront and making it easy to say yes, um, would be definitely my recommendation.

[00:28:31] CODY: Hmm. So you have this section in your book called Becoming a Learning Machine. So, so what does that mean exactly, and why is it so critical to permissionless action? 

[00:28:43] JAY: It comes from a quote, uh, from Charlie Munger, which is, you know, I constantly see people who rise in life, who are not necessarily the smartest or the most talented, but they're learning machines every night they go to bed a little bit wiser than when they woke up.

[00:28:58] JAY: I found that to be true in my [00:29:00] life. Um, I know we just both talked about that, but, um, studying the greats that have come before you putting in, you know, the, the books that have changed my life are the bio biographies. Seeing how Steve Jobs, uh, had this insane attention to detail in every. Product that he created.

[00:29:19] JAY: Uh, reading Arnold Schwarzenegger's biography and seeing how obsessed and relentless he was to be number one and how singular focused he was. Like, learning from those who have come before you, uh, is the one of the most highest leveraged things you can do because instead of fumbling through. Uh, through your journey and making mistakes and losing money and, you know, those things will happen, but you can, you can remove a lot of those mistakes if you learn from the experience of others.

[00:29:47] JAY: And so I'm a huge proponent of reading biographies of, um, you know, studying if studying the people in your craft that have come before you. There's, uh, something I talk about in the book, um, I like to call it the [00:30:00] monkey research method, which is who are three people in your field that you look up to? And studying them.

[00:30:08] JAY: And then who are three people that inspired those three people and studying them and just climbing your way up the tree of inspiration. Um, because what you'll find is like, even though the context was different and the time periods was different, a lot of the lessons, especially the mindset lessons are the same.

[00:30:23] JAY: And so if you can internalize those, um, I believe you'll be able to shrink and compress a lot of your career learnings. And so that's how you accelerate. 

[00:30:34] CODY: Yeah. And you also talk about something called ignorance debt. Can you say what that 

[00:30:40] JAY: is? Ignorance of the debt. Ignorance. Debt is a concept from Alex, from Ozi, um, which is put simply, let's say you're making $50,000 a year and your goal is to make a million dollars a year.

[00:30:52] JAY: Well, every year you, you don't know how to make a million dollars a year. You're paying $950,000 in ignorance, debt. [00:31:00] Not knowing how to make a million dollars a year is costing you almost a million dollars a year. And so early on in your career, if you can pay down that ignorance, debt, if you can invest in yourself, stack skills, uh, reach out to different mentors and, uh, and, and people and, and, and create collisions to make sure that you are learning.

[00:31:19] JAY: Um. The faster you'll be able to get to that earning stage. And a lot of people try and skip the learning stage and get straight to the earning stage. Um, but the analogy I like to use is that's like working out for two weeks and then trying to do a max bench press. Like you still need to lay the foundation before you max out.

[00:31:38] CODY: And so what, what kind of habits or systems have you been able to internalize to help you in this process of learning? 

[00:31:46] JAY: Yeah. Uh, like I mentioned, I, I would say reading biographies is number one. Um, I would say reverse engineering the career paths of those who came before you. Um, and I would say learning through doing, like you said, [00:32:00] um, you know, all the books in the world, uh, won't help you unless you actually take action.

[00:32:05] JAY: And so realize that you can just do things and figure out, number one, what do you want? Number two, what do you need to learn in order to do that? I. Number three, who do you need to connect with in order to learn those things, to do what you want? And number four, what do you need to do in order to connect with those people to learn the skills you need to ultimately achieve your North Star vision?

[00:32:27] CODY: Yeah. And, and on, on top of that, I mean, I. We don't need permission from others to learn. We can, if we can make learning fun, make find some aspect of learning it. It's just like going to the gym or working out, you know, what, what might work for somebody else might not work for you. If you find that going to the gym, you just absolutely hate it.

[00:32:49] CODY: There's other things that you can do. The, the goal isn't just to get you to, to say, work out like every day, uh, or, or a few times a week at a place that you hate. It's to help you [00:33:00] find something. What's some aspect of exercise that you can enjoy that you like doing? Because once you can find that, that little spark, then you can go off and go so far that you would've never, never been able to believe that you've been able to go that far.

[00:33:15] CODY: And I think the same is with learning. Like there's so many different ways to learn. So find what's the thing that you enjoy the most. Maybe it's, it's reading, uh. Super nerdy psychology books like me, or maybe it's reading biographies about other people, and that you can identify what parts of these people like and, and give that inspiration and realize that, hey, if they, if they did it, then I can do it.

[00:33:38] CODY: Um, and so you, you, you, you learn by, by reading and partly by doing, and I, I'm also interested to hear is that you've been able to get a level of, of success and having a very consistent newsletter and you have like 200,000 followers or, or I'm not sure if that's just subscribers, but can you tell me where did you get the idea for creating a [00:34:00] newsletter and how have you been able to be so consistent and, uh, where do you get your sources?

[00:34:05] CODY: How, how do you create your content? 

[00:34:07] JAY: So I'd say those are two different questions. I'd say, uh, number one, why do I do it? Um, I do it because of this concept I talk about in the book, which is learning in public. Uh, number one, uh, teaching is one of the fastest ways to learn. And so by writing and solidifying my learning, uh, writing is the act of solidifying my learning.

[00:34:31] JAY: Um, I'd say the second reason is. I just love writing, and I think that's, that's a part, um, that I think most people overlook is they try and be consistent on something that they aren't necessarily super excited about, similar to what you're talking about. And so I would encourage people to lean into the things that they're obsessed with, um, and you find the things you're obsessed with through paying attention to the things you pay attention to.

[00:34:59] JAY: And [00:35:00] so that might look like noticing that the next time, like when is the time that you get so lost in whatever activity you're doing that you forget to drink water or you forget to pee, or you forget to eat. Um, or what is something that you get so engaged in the activity that you willingly stay up past midnight, not because there's a deadline, but because you want to.

[00:35:21] JAY: And then what's something that feels like play to you but looks like work to others? And so I have a twin brother and he doesn't like writing as much and he thinks that writing a weekly newsletter is like homework. Why would you do that to yourself? Um, but to me, I love doing it. And every Saturday I get excited to go through my notes.

[00:35:39] JAY: And go through my, and review my past week and figure out what did I learn this week that I can apply into the next week. And then I write about those things. And so, um, leaning into what you naturally enjoy would be number one. Um, in terms of where I get my content, it's uh, what I read and what I do. And I just think deeply about [00:36:00] those two things and try and simplify and then articulate those in a.

[00:36:07] JAY: Simple and compelling manner, because I know that if I can do that, then I've understood those lessons and those are more internalized into my being. 

[00:36:17] CODY: Yeah. That, that's, that's an important lesson is that we often learn by teaching, and if you can teach a concept at a five-year-old level, level, you have internalized that knowledge to a degree that you just can't, if you are, if you're just passively reading or, or taking a course on something.

[00:36:36] CODY: So it seems like you've, you're, you're also so well spoken too. I just, I can't give you enough. Every, every, every time you talk and every answer is, is very clearly well thought out that you think deeply about a lot of these things. And one other section of your book is something that I consider very practical for everybody to, to know is, is in making, informing kind of meaningful [00:37:00] connections.

[00:37:00] CODY: And you've seemed to, uh, have this crystallized process of doing that through outreach. Where most people think, Hey, this is a famous person, a successful person, uh, they're, they're, uh, they're miles and miles away from me. They, they're not gonna pay attention to me. You, you seem to ignored that part of you that thinks that it's, it's not even worth it.

[00:37:21] CODY: And you talk about even a strategy, you called your tag method. So can you explain what that method is and the importance of kind of doing outreach for meaningful connections? 

[00:37:32] JAY: Yeah. Uh, you know. One of the other ways I've learned, aside from reading biographies and, uh, you know, building things is, is connecting with others and finding mental sparring partners that you can really dive into, uh, a topic with and, and debate back and forth.

[00:37:50] JAY: Um, so I would say a few things to. Develop that network outside of the tag method, and we'll dive into that. Uh, number one is anytime you like [00:38:00] something, uh, tell the creator. And I think that's similar to what happened right here is I was going through your website and I just really loved your story and I thought it resonated with me.

[00:38:08] JAY: And so I DMed you and I said, Hey, your story inspires me. And so that's just one way to, uh, more easily connect with others because it's an asymmetric opportunity. There's no downside and infinite upside. Um, I. Then another thing I'd say is be the initiator. So if you're visiting a new city, how can you host a dinner?

[00:38:29] JAY: If you're reading a book, how can you start a mini book club? If you're learning a skill, how can you put together a little, you know, telegram, group chat, and then learn together? Um, putting together these groups and being the initiator instead of waiting for others to come to you, uh, is definitely underrated.

[00:38:47] JAY: Then the third part I'd say is more of a mindset tip, which is don't be afraid to ask for help. Uh, that's one of the things I'm learning as I'm in the process of launching this book. There's a lot that I don't know. And so leaning on [00:39:00] those, uh, in my network, uh, I'm super grateful for them and, uh, I definitely recommend.

[00:39:07] JAY: Not being afraid to ask for help if you don't know something, obviously do your research, Google it first. But, uh, don't be afraid to ask for help because most people are more willing to help than you believe. Um, and, and usually it's, it's your own mindset blockers thinking that, oh, they won't like me, or they'll think I'm bothering them.

[00:39:25] JAY: In terms of the tag method, this is something that Charlie Hoen talks about. Um, and it's something I've used to land the internship with Bi Van, with Noah, which is Target. Pick someone that, uh, you admire. To me, I think the best people to reach out to are not the people at the top of the mountain, but people who are one to two steps ahead of you.

[00:39:47] JAY: Because the people at the top of the mountain, like Elon Musk and you know Taylor Swift, while it may be cool to like, reach out to them and maybe they give you a response, oftentimes the advice they give isn't really practical because they're so far [00:40:00] removed from what it's like to be a beginner. And so, um, if you reach out to someone, one or two steps ahead of you, you're more likely to get a response and helpful advice.

[00:40:10] JAY: Uh, step two would be audit. This is doing your homework. And uh, it's what I did with Noah is like diving into old podcasts, going, you know, Googling his name and then typing, you know, Noah Kagan early career. And then not just settling for the first page of results, which is what Google wants to show you, but then going to the second page and the third page and finding insights that, uh, most people won't be willing to go through.

[00:40:34] JAY: Um, and then the last step. His gift giving that audit for free. I sent that pitch deck in nine pieces of ready to be published content for free to Noah, not knowing if he'd even respond. And I think, um, a, a lot of people think, you know, we talked about this before, a lot of people think, oh, you know, free work is bad, but.

[00:40:56] JAY: You should have no sense of entitlement, especially if you're early on in your career, [00:41:00] because they're the ones who are gonna give you a chance. You're the one, you're the one who needs the opportunity, so don't have a sense of ego attached to it. 

[00:41:07] CODY: Right. And you mentioned something called a Ben Franklin effect.

[00:41:13] JAY: If you mean, so Ben Franklin, um, when he was in his early political career, he had a rival that did not like him. And rather than try and, uh, you know. Kiss up to him. Ben Franklin asked for a special copy of a rare book that his rival had in his collection, and he was very polite about it and, and admired that the rival for having that book and asked the bar for two weeks.

[00:41:42] JAY: Uh, the rival was surprised. He ended up giving the book to Ben, Ben Reddit and then sent it back to him with a note, uh, expressing his gratitude. And from then on that rival. Thought of Ben in a positive light. And I think, um, that's the, that goes into the [00:42:00] not being afraid to ask for help and not being afraid to ask for favors as long as you're also giving.

[00:42:05] JAY: And so, um, something I've learned as a creator and, and growing an audience and. Connecting with other creators is, uh, the people at the top are not competing, they're collaborating. And so the faster you can realize that the more you give, the more you get and the more you can ask Wall giving, uh, the better things will be, uh, is something that I think a lot of creators could also understand.

[00:42:29] CODY: Yeah. And I think you're, you're saying that instead of asking, say if you're networking, whatever, what can this person do for me? You're asking, how can I make this a no-brainer for, for them? This is a, this is a shift in perspective that I think only, uh, only really a handful of people are able to see. And I think that's certainly a connection that, that you've made of, of, if you can create something of value, I mean, it's, it's no brainer that they're gonna take this and they're gonna be able to use it.

[00:42:57] CODY: And then with the Ben Ben Franklin effect, [00:43:00] they're gonna feel like kind of maybe they owe you something and maybe, maybe that, that they like you a little bit more. So they're gonna see what opportunities they might have for themselves. So it's a huge mindset shift that I think is important for, for everybody to really, uh, understand.

[00:43:15] CODY: So kudos to you for, for understanding this, especially so young. 

[00:43:20] JAY: Yeah. It's a little bit like, um, when you like a girl and you, you, you know, you ask, Hey, can I borrow that eraser? Right? It's just those little things, um, that show that you're, you're paying attention to them and that they matter. And I think that's what a lot of people want is they wanna feel valued.

[00:43:35] JAY: And so if you can do that, um, there's a lot of benefits to that. 

[00:43:40] CODY: And so you mentioned in your book that becoming an initiator, it, it changes your trajectory in life. So, so how does this apply to, to community building, um, and becoming, you know, basically a super connector? 

[00:43:55] JAY: Yeah. I believe that there are two types of people in the world, uh, those who wait [00:44:00] and those who don't, and the people who don't wait.

[00:44:03] JAY: The people who realize that they can just do things. The people who take initiative. The people who, when visiting a city, they put together a group dinner. The people who shoot their shot in the dms, the people who create content online, even if they may get made fun of by their friends, uh, those are the people who, you know, the, the higher you want to go in life, the more uncertainty you'll be, you'll have to tolerate.

[00:44:27] JAY: And so, um, realizing that if you want to be an exception, and I'm sure many of the people who listen to your podcast want to be exceptional, uh. By definition, you'll have to be doing things that are slightly different from everyone else. You'll have to be taking a little bit more risks. You'll have to risk being made fun of or mis misunderstood or judged.

[00:44:48] JAY: Um, but that's the price you pay. That, you know, every, every success has a cost. Yeah. 

[00:44:55] CODY: So are there any historical examples, uh, from other [00:45:00] masterminds that, that we can learn from? 

[00:45:03] JAY: Yeah. In the book I talk about. Many of these masterminds from Taylor Swift moving to Nashville when she was 14 because she realized that the opportunities, uh, in country music were all in Nashville.

[00:45:16] JAY: Um, I talked about Sidney Weinberg, who started as a janitor's assistant and wind up becoming CEO of Goldman Sachs by taking on the dirty work or the opportunities that others didn't wanna take. And I talked about Steven Spielberg, who jumped off a moving tram to, uh, walk around Universal studios and make himself useful and ended up getting, uh, an opportunity to be a director of a movie.

[00:45:38] JAY: And many of other, many of these other stories, um, are, and you can just do things. 

[00:45:44] CODY: What about if somebody's like an introvert? Uh, I mean, I'm an introvert. I definitely have harder times connecting with people. Do you have any advice for them as to how they can kind of be the, the glue that that creates or is a part of a a network?

[00:45:57] JAY: Yeah, I mean, honestly I'd say I'm an introvert [00:46:00] as well. Um, I think the benefit of the internet is a lot of this stuff that you can do to connect with others doesn't necessarily have to be, uh, face to face or through talking. Um, the DMI sent you is just text. Um, and I think you can do a lot with writing.

[00:46:17] JAY: So if you are introverted and you enjoy writing, I don't think you have to. Like everyone talk nowadays talks about how you have to be on video and you have to be creating, you know, YouTube videos and tiktoks. But, uh, I recommend just leaning into what your strengths are and complimenting yourself with people who.

[00:46:34] JAY: Uh, compliment those weaknesses. So you mentioned that you had a COO who had an MBA and, you know, compliments the skill sets that you don't necessarily want to, uh, learn or aren't necessarily as good at. And so you should stick in your zone of genius. And so if you're an introvert, uh, lean into what you're good at and find those who compliment your weaknesses.

[00:46:57] CODY: And I think there, there are so many different ways of doing that. [00:47:00] As you say, even with the internet, there's ways of offering value to others and becoming part of networks that will allow you to have greater opportunities. Or even in person, like I'm friends with Nick Gray who wrote the book, the Two Hour Cocktail Party.

[00:47:15] CODY: And, and always, like every, everybody knows who Nick Gray is. And if you come to Austin and you wanna throw a party with influential people, you, you, you connect with Nick Gray and he knows how to, how to host that. And so when you're somebody who's kind of bringing others together and you're not just a conversation or, or, or a participant in the conversation, you're, you're shaping it.

[00:47:37] CODY: It enables you to have opportunities that you wouldn't have had otherwise. So you're, you're definitely right on the money that if, if you see something, if you see, uh, there, there's, there's an opportunity of people who have kind of similar, uh, mindsets, like may maybe create like a walking group, like I know every, every morning here in Austin on Saturday morning.

[00:47:59] CODY: There is [00:48:00] a, a really great group walk downtown and you never know who you're gonna meet, and you have so many different, uh, friends that you can make and there's no pitching. Uh, it's, it's not for, for relationship, you know, for any kind of romance relationships, but I. These are all different groups and things that if you have an interest, you can just make it and you can end up meeting so many, so many amazing people in such a interesting way.

[00:48:26] CODY: And perhaps for you, that's your newsletter. Um, and who knows what else you're gonna do in the future. 

[00:48:31] JAY: Yeah, that's, that's some, that's another great, uh, point you mentioned the newsletter has, uh, creating content online as an introvert through written content. Like if you go on my Instagram, uh. I grew to 200,000 followers, uh, with very little, very few videos, and it's all just a black background with white text, and I think it just goes to show like you can just do you and.

[00:48:54] JAY: By putting yourself out there and putting your authentic self out there, you'll, you'll attract [00:49:00] people who vibe with the same thing that you vibe with and have similar goals that you have. And, uh, you'll find that a lot of your followers, I, I did a poll with this. A lot of my followers are the same personality type that I am.

[00:49:11] JAY: Uh, they just naturally draw to the same things. 

[00:49:15] CODY: And so a theme that you talk about in your book is the importance of working in public. You advocate for sharing your work and even if it's not perfect, so, so how did this approach help your own growth and what advice do you have for others and, and understanding that it doesn't have to be perfect, just that there's benefits in doing something like this.

[00:49:35] JAY: Yeah. In the book I talk about outbound versus inbound personal marketing. And so outbound is the stuff we've been talking about, the cold dms, the cold emails, the reaching out to people. Something that's often overlooked is the inbound marketing, which is creating content and pushing that out into the world so that things come to you, opportunities come to you, people come to you, and that's what I've found in in my [00:50:00] career as well.

[00:50:00] JAY: I've done a lot of outbound marketing, but I've also done a lot of inbound marketing, and the content that I've created has ended up helping me build a six figure ghostwriting agency. Um, where I've done zero outreach for it, every single client of mine has come inbound, um, through hearing about my story, seeing a piece of my content, and wanting to work with me.

[00:50:21] JAY: And I think that's just the power of creating content. Uh, you know, anyone can do it if you have a phone and an internet connection. And I think that's, that's special. Um, in terms of getting over the mindset block of like, who am I to say stuff? Who am I to put myself out into the world? Um. I definitely relate with that.

[00:50:39] JAY: I, I faced that myself, you know, being 19, you know, interacting with 30 year olds, 40 year olds, 50 year olds and beyond. And, uh, you know, realizing that everyone has something wise to say. And the way I like to view it is I'm not the professor who's lecturing at the class. I'm like that kid in the back of the class sharing his [00:51:00] notes with the rest of the students.

[00:51:01] JAY: Um, and so it's not about how to do something or this is the way you should do something or you have to do it my way or this is the best way. I'm just sharing my personal story. This is what's worked for me. I. It's not how to do something, it's how I've done it. And so that's what I write about in the book.

[00:51:17] JAY: You know, there's obviously a ton of different ways you can create opportunities for yourself. And a lot of people found success on the traditional path. Um, but this is just what's worked for me. And so, um, realizing that you don't need to speak to everyone because if you speak to everyone, you speak to no one.

[00:51:33] JAY: And so writing to yourself two years ago can be a perfectly viable option. 

[00:51:38] CODY: Yeah. And at the end of the day, we're all just winging it. When you, once you realize that and you can approach something from a humble perspective and not trying to be perfect, then you're able to get over your, your own fears, your own anxiety, and put yourself out there.

[00:51:52] CODY: Because at the end of the day, visibility creates serendipity and it's consistency matters way more [00:52:00] than just perfection. And as you say, you put yourself out there and you are going to have opportunity come knocking sooner than later, rather than trying to do like, like a stealth startup or trying to to, to perfect something behind the scenes.

[00:52:15] JAY: Yeah, a hundred percent. 

[00:52:18] CODY: And so you, you also say in your book this idea of selling your sawdust, so, so what does that mean and how can people apply that? 

[00:52:26] JAY: Yeah, so selling your sawdust is a concept in woodworking where, you know, at say the, the woodwork's, you know, sawing and building the table, uh, when he saws, he leaves a lot of dust on the floor.

[00:52:38] JAY: And so it's realizing that that dust, which seems useless to you, can actually be really amazing to others. Uh, there's a business I was talking to the other day, uh, this guy makes bagel chips out of the. The bagels that don't get sold. And I just think that's an amazing way to leverage the things you're already doing.

[00:52:57] JAY: Um, so if you're an athlete, [00:53:00] maybe that means recording your, you know, your warmup routine or your workout routine and posting that online. Uh, you know, Payton Prichard, a a, a small, a undersized point guard, you know, went viral for his ball handling routine. Uh, that wasn't, there was no fancy, fancy cameras or lighting.

[00:53:17] JAY: It was just him in his garage just dribbling and, um. What's, what's amazing to you or what's, what's obvious to you is often amazing to others. And so finding ways to share what you're already doing and documenting that instead of creating new content. Um, so let's say you wanted to get on Cody's podcast.

[00:53:37] JAY: Maybe it's documenting. How you're going to do that. Or maybe you're learning cop, it's documenting what are the things you're actually learning and how are you implementing them? And by doing that by, by putting yourself and your work and your learnings out there, you attract a ton of serendipity and opportunities through that.

[00:53:56] CODY: Hmm. Yeah. And I think the idea of working in [00:54:00] public, it seems to create this, this kind of, this positive feedback loop because not, not only do you get better, like through feedback, but you also create this trail of breadcrumbs that I think leads opportunities back to you. Uh, I, I think it's, it's like manufacturing your own luck, you know?

[00:54:15] CODY: And by doing that, we are so much better off in terms of future opportunity than we would ever be just by, by hiding behind the scenes. 

[00:54:24] JAY: Right. You can, you can create your own luck by, by creating a lot of articles, by creating action, by doing things. So that's for sure. 

[00:54:36] CODY: So. Before we wrap up, Jay, I'd love to give our listeners something that they can implement right away.

[00:54:42] CODY: So, so could you share like a, a simple exercise or some kind of challenge that somebody might be able to do today, even if they're feeling hesitant or unsure as, as a means to kind of embrace this concept of permissionless action? 

[00:54:56] JAY: Yeah, I think we talked about it, uh, several times throughout this [00:55:00] podcast, but.

[00:55:01] JAY: I think it's really important to get clear on what you want. And so if you were to go through these four steps, uh, today, I think it'd be really helpful. Number one, what do you want? What is your North Star vision? What do you want to get out of your career or out of life? You know, it doesn't have to be perfect, but what matters is that you write it down and then you can refine it over time.

[00:55:21] JAY: It's the act of thinking about it intentionally that matters. Number two is what skills do I need to learn in order to achieve the thing that I want? Number three is, who do I need to connect with to learn those skills, to achieve those things? And then number four is what do I have to do to connect with those people, to learn those skills, to achieve what I wanna achieve?

[00:55:43] JAY: And then after you make that plan, what can you do today? Today, not tomorrow. What can you do today to. To make one step forward, one movement of progress towards that North Star vision. 

[00:55:58] CODY: Hey, I think that's [00:56:00] the perfect note to end on. Jay, thank you so much for sharing your insights and experiences with us today.

[00:56:05] CODY: Thank your your story. It's a powerful reminder that we don't need to wait for someone else's approval to create the opportunities that we want. For our listeners who wanna dive deeper into these ideas, Jay's book, you can just do things. The power of permissionless action will be available on April 30th, 2025.

[00:56:24] CODY: You can pre-order it now and we'll include links in the show notes. You can also follow Jay on social media and subscribe to his newsletter, the Spark. Thank you again, Jay, for joining us today and to our listeners, remember that door might not just be locked after all, you just need to try the handle.

[00:56:43] CODY: Hey guys, this is Cody again. I hope you enjoyed that episode of Mind Hack, and if you're interested in getting more mind hack worthy stuff straight to your inbox, then you might consider signing up for my weekly newsletter. It often contains links to new episodes, blog posts, and other interesting finds I [00:57:00] found on the in interweb in the past week.

[00:57:02] CODY: It pretty much focuses around productivity and efficiency. So if that's your thing, then be sure to visit my website@codymcclain.com. That's M-C-L-A-I n.com to sign up. Also, if there were any interesting websites, companies, books, blog posts, quotes, or anything else that was mentioned in this episode, you can find it all in more by visiting the official website for the Mind Hack show@mindhack.com.

[00:57:29] CODY: And as always, if you have any feedback. Good or bad, I want to hear it. Send me a tweet, email, or what have you on either of my websites, as my goal with this show is to give you the maximum value in the shortest amount of time. That's all for now, guys. Thanks again for listening and I'll catch you guys again soon.