Colleen: [00:00:00] There is a force within every single person that is for growth and healing, and you can just call it your essence. Some people call it Buddha Nature. Some people, some Christians call it Christ Nature or your soul. It's that you that existed from the moment there was you, and it will be there until the moment you die.

Mind Hack is a podcast about the psychology of performance, behavior change, and self optimization. Each episode explores how to think better, work smarter, and live more intentionally through conversations with top thinkers, entrepreneurs, and scientists.

Cody: Hello and welcome to The Mind Hack podcast, the show where we explore the science of peak performance, mindset, and personal growth. I'm your host, Cody McLean, and today I'm joined by Colleen West. A [00:01:00] licensed marriage and family therapist with over 25 years of experience and helping individuals heal from both simple and complex trauma.

Colleen is an approved consultant for Internal Family Systems Therapy and the author of We All Have Parts, an Illustrated Guide to Healing Trauma With Internal Family Systems. She's helped countless individuals understand that we all have different parts of ourselves, protective mechanisms that are developed to keep us safe, but sometimes they also keep us stuck.

In this episode, we're going to explore how trauma lives in our bodies and minds, and more importantly, how we can heal by developing a compassionate relationship with our internal parts. We'll hear Colleen's insights on three types of parts. We all have managers, firefighters, and exiles. You'll share techniques you can use to access [00:02:00] your own self energy, that calm, curious, compassionate core that exists within all of us.

By the end of our conversation, you'll have concrete tools to better understand your triggers, manage emotional overwhelm, and begin your own healing journey. Whether you're dealing with past trauma, struggling with self-criticism, or simply want to understand yourself better, this episode is packed with wisdom to help you transform your inner world.

Let's dive in. Colleen, welcome to the show. 

Colleen: Thanks, Cody, and happy to be here. And that's, that's a lot. I hope we can cover all that in this interview 'cause it's, it's my favorite topic, I have to say. 

Cody: Well, well, you've been helping people heal trauma for over two decades. So I'm curious kind of what inspired you to specialize in trauma therapy and, and in, in particular to use, uh, internal family [00:03:00] systems.

Colleen: Yeah. Well, um, you know, it kind of found me, um, I grew up in a family, uh, an alcoholic home. Lots of rage violence. Um, it was, um, not the worst, but it was a pretty tough way to grow up. And I was the, uh, was one of seven girls and I was, it was a pretty chaotic atmosphere in a lot of ways. And, uh, for whatever reason, I don't know my temperament or maybe it was my soul's journey, but I ended up being the family therapist and I knew that I was needed as that from a very early age.

And of course that comes with a whole lot of, um, you know, kind of a. It, it was a drive for me to, uh, learn how to listen to people and help people and connect with people, um, [00:04:00] and to feel useful and to attune to other people. But it also came with very heavy burdens, um, that I felt that, um, you know, I went into adulthood feeling kind of like I had never had a childhood and that I just went right into the work world, like at age two.

And so, um, fast forward, um, I ended up becoming a psychotherapist, a marriage and family therapist, and it really was a terrific match for me, um, because I could, I have a DHD and I could sit all day long with people in my office. And never be bored, be completely engaged in every single hour. And because every story is different.

And, um, whereas if [00:05:00] I was working in an office, I just wanted to like, just run out of the room screaming because I was bored with the same old, same old, same old. So anyway, I become a psychotherapist and I, you know, EMDR was a fairly new thing. And I thought, this is a really effective therapy. I'm gonna learn it.

And I did, became good at it. I became a consultant and I became a trainer. And what I loved about it was that it, um, could transform, um, a person's memories into something new, something healthier, something that was resolved. Um. But it also introduced me to the whole world of severe trauma because when you are trained in EMDR, people come to see you.

Um, with that, you know, it's like you get the trauma label. [00:06:00] She treats trauma, but trauma is so vast and you know, it's a word that's very overused now too. But, um, I began to get clients who had such longstanding abuse and neglect that MDR couldn't really even touch their trauma. It, it's, EMDR works beautifully for people who have some inner resources.

Um, but it can be a long, uh, slow process to get to EMDR if they don't have those. So then enter internal family systems because I knew I needed. Something more, some more skills. And once I learned Internal Family systems, I became so convinced that that was the way the mind was put together. And [00:07:00] EMDR turns out actually is a parts model too, but it's not recognized as such.

So memories are stored in parts, parts of us. And, um, so, but IFS is a very direct way to engage with our internal parts. That was a really long talk, long monologue there. 

Cody: No, no, it's fine. And, and for those who aren't familiar with EMDR and Internal Family Systems, can you, can you tell us what they are?

Colleen: Sure. Um, EMDR is quite well known now. Many people seek it out. Um, it is, it was, it was, um. Kind of discovered that the, um, when that memories are stored in the brain in a certain form, and that, um, stimulating eye movements. Um, and then we found out that alternating tones [00:08:00] work and taps on the, on alternating sides of the body can work, but it, those things can unlock the way a memory is stored in the brain and restore it in a healthier form in the present day.

So a memory can be stuck, like, um, you know, like you have a, a traumatic car accident and it can affect, you know, your feelings of safety driving or, or, and it can just get bigger and bigger and bigger too. Like, um, many traumas just sort of snowball because we wanna avoid getting those fears stimulated again.

And, um, so in a sense, a memory, if you've ever had one of those big T traumas like, you know, combat trauma or a rape or an assault, they can stay frozen in your memory forever, um, in a very, [00:09:00] like, sort of crystal in form. They aren't get, they don't have access to subsequent learning. And EMDR unlocked those memories by using eye movements or alternate taps.

IFS is very different, but the interesting thing is that it is also a transformative therapy. So, and I can say more about what those, what that is, but IFS, um, was invented by Richard Schwartz. Um, he's a, a great mentor of mine and I really admire his work. Um. And what he discovered was that his clients had distinct, um, little personalities within themselves, sub personalities, and they had different, um, sometimes different genders, different experiences, [00:10:00] different beliefs, different body sensations.

And the main thing he discovered was that this is perfectly normal. It has nothing to do with, you know, being a multiple personality or something of that nature. Everybody has parts. Yeah. So IFS is kind of a, uh, very systematic way to, um, meet and get to know your internal parts, see the way they relate to each other, and understand the, um, difficult memories and beliefs that they're caring.

And then help them, let them go, help them, release them. So, yeah, 

Cody: and, and I guess on a, on a personal note, so, uh, you know, for those who are listening, uh, if you're not aware, I, I grew up in foster care and I lost my parents when I was young. And so I, I went through a lot of trauma growing up in a scenario like that.[00:11:00] 

And, and many years ago I did EMDR therapy where it was, it was trying to, it was, it had the light, uh, that was going left and right and as I understood it at the time and is like that we're bringing up that emotion because often those, those experiences kind get coded and are unconscious. And so the goal is to first create like a safe space that you can always revert to in case, you know, it gets too overwhelming for you, but then it's to bring up all the experiences, the emotions, what it felt like, you know, bring yourself back to that place, and then to recode it with kind of like a neutral experience, which I guess is like the light or, or the tapping that's going left and right.

And so the idea is to remove that kind of unconscious trigger that is affecting our current day-to-day life. And I, I did that in, when, when I was trying to go back, I think I had this, this, uh, this attachment to feeling like I could have done more to take care of my mom, to prevent her from becoming an alcoholic and, and going down the spiral and trying to always like, look up for the [00:12:00] family.

And in some ways it helped me to accept, you know, what happened happened. And I was just a, a child. And, you know, nobody can put that kind of expectation on you. And so is is to let that kind of, uh, unconscious guilt go in a way. And we, we did that in kind of concert where I was introduced to Internal family systems.

And, uh, it was really groundbreaking at the time. And as, as I was talking to you before the podcast, I think really IFS is in some ways it's, it's, it's a, I think it's a huge portion of the future of, of psychotherapy and that it allows us to look at. I think the most important part that we're kind of lacking right now is this, this inattention to our own emotions where we don't realize if you pull out your phone, you know, sometimes you pull out your phone in the checkout line because you're bored.

And we don't realize, like that boredom, it's an emotion. And often we experience these emotions throughout the day, but we don't know that we're experiencing a negative emotion, but we just default to numbing ourselves where it's looking at our phones, scrolling on doom, scrolling, [00:13:00] right? Or taking a drug.

And, and when and when we do that consistently, we are kind of drowning out our internal, internal system. We're, we're skewing ourselves and internal family systems. I think first it teaches us to recognize that we're having that negative emotion. And then to look at what part of ourself is, is trying to, to, to bring this up.

And, uh, you can correct me if I'm going off on a, on a tangent here, is that if, if we end up having something, uh, uh, what's, what's a good example? Do you have any good examples that I, I'll let you take the mic here. 

Colleen: I, I love where you're going with this, actually. Um, I think that, you know, people numb in so many different ways now.

Um, and you know, I myself, I have the impulse to, you know, go on social media when I'm just sort of tired at the end of, end of the day, or there's so many ways we do this food, you know, um, [00:14:00] substances. And if we get caught up in constantly numbing or checking out, our growth really does stop. You know, that's a fact.

We know in, um, alcohol and drug, um, treatment, um, you know, very often if a person starts using heavily at, at 13, they, they really don't mature very much past that point. And in a way, we're all in that. Fishbowl experiment with smartphones. It's, it's one of my soap boxes. I think it's really changing our minds, right?

Because they're, everything's so ready to hand even many times it's like, I look at my phone to check the weather, and then I get caught up in a work email at like 6:30 AM It's like, no, this is not good. Right? Mm-hmm. So, um, [00:15:00] I, uh, I like where you're going with this, and I think that globally as we numb more as a society, and certainly when kids see their parents with phones constantly, when babies see their, when you give a baby a phone to, to, you know, distract them in the grocery store, these are going to have big implications in.

People's capacity to look inside themselves. Because when you look inside, that's what your real feelings, uh, are what cause you to grow, um, and progress 

Cody: and relate. And so kind of looking at internal family systems, uh, I know in my experience it was to break down. It, it, it kind of has this, this core ideology.

I believe that it looks at kind of our, our behavior in having a positive intent. Uh, so I, I'm curious kind of how does this mindset shape kind of how you [00:16:00] approach clients' problems? Like, do, do you have an example of kind of reframing a kind of a, so a so-called like bad behavior as is like a protector or something positive?

Oh, 

Colleen: totally. Um, I think that's core to IFS. Um, it's one of the reasons why so many therapists just find like such resonance with it, um, because. We're not making anybody bad or wrong. You know, of course there are bad behaviors, but, um, you know, they're evil behaviors even. But what we see is if you get down to the core of any part, they are trying to solve a problem for the client.

So, um, you know, a severe eating disorder or severe alcoholism or drug use, those parts feel absolutely desperate for relief from the suffering that [00:17:00] is underneath. And so they're trying to solve a problem. So they may also some, some addictions, some compulsive behaviors, um, are a response to, um, just an overwhelming, um, critical voice inside, right?

And so they're trying to get the, the, um, person out of pain in that way, right? Um, so yeah, all parts have a positive intent for the client, even if some of the behaviors have unfortunate consequences. You know, if I, if I drink two glasses of wine every night, I'm gonna have negative consequences from that.

My growth will slow down. Um, you know, even apart from physical, um, things about that, right? 

Cody: No. And, and I, I think some, some of the [00:18:00] parts that I've mapped out in the past is I go back to, to the, to the Cody that was very young on the school bus. I had been creating my first business and really kind of as I got into adulthood, I would burn out and I was, I was always like, so much of my, my self worth was based on my output and how productive, how successful could I be?

And going back to and trying to ask, where is that? Coming from and I, I think it kind of comes from this younger version of myself that was kind of like the weird kid in school that that didn't have any friends that was trying to feel validated or trying to gain acceptance from others. And I saw if I could build a business and be really successful that.

Other people will admire me and, and see me as somebody to associate themselves with. And I kind of saw that that was partly at the root of, of this behavior that was causing me to just be, uh, like a workaholic to an extreme. And being able to then recognize that this is a part of me. It's, they're trying to protect me.

It's, they're trying to do a good [00:19:00] thing. It's trying to help me, me feel validated, feeling part of a tribe, which is an innate human behavior. And yet it was hurting me. Right. And I think by, by recognizing this part, and, and like I would go back and kind of visualize myself like in my basement where I would be working as a kid and I would, I would visualize like these, these different younger parts of me that, you know, other, other associated issues.

And having a conversation with it, like in my head and then asking, kind of going back and forth about what it would say and then. Imagining my, my older self, like hugging my younger self and telling you that, you know, it's okay. I, I love you, like you are, uh, you're, you're trying to do good for me. And in some ways it felt like this relief had I had, had, felt like a certain level of relief.

And I wouldn't say it outright kind of solved this, this need to, to be successful or that validation, but I think it lowered it, you know, it lowered it just a tad. 

Colleen: Yeah, a hundred percent. I think what you're describing is [00:20:00] a classic manager driven system. So you're, you've got amazing managers, Cody, you know, just amazingly functional, high functioning managers.

I do too. And they've really gotten us far, but they can dominate a personality too, and to the extent they dominate their exiles underneath the young, vulnerable parts of ourselves. That are causing us pain. And those managers, they are trying to keep that pain out of awareness. And so, um, you know, whether it's lack of belonging or lack of importance or, you know, all the ways we feel less than, especially when we lose attachment figures earlier when we are, you know, we look weird or we sound weird.

Um, of course weird is in quotes. Um, but, um, [00:21:00] those, you know, it's, it's a relationship. And so if we can heal those vulnerable parts, the exiles of our personality, uh, the parts that our families or caregivers couldn't acknowledge were there, maybe they couldn't acknowledge them in themselves, then our managers can just be the like rock stars that they are.

Everybody needs managers to run their lives, you know, to, to get up and. You know, eat good food and to go out and exercise. We all need managers. There's no way to escape that. But what we want is a system in balance. So, um, what, you know, IFS the goal is self-leadership so that there's a conversation between your parts and your core, kind of wise self, what we call self capital s 

Cody: Yeah.

And so many of us have, [00:22:00] you know, I, I think there's, I don't know if there's a misconception that you have. Some people may, may assume that you have to have like a, a very specific type of trauma or, or that you have to have trauma that you can look revert to and look back to that you've had, that would be the impetus for you using something like internal family systems.

But yet many of us have a inner critic or like a childlike side. And so I'm wondering, is that, is that true or. Could everybody benefit by IFS? And if, and if they could, how should they start kind of mapping out their own parts. 

Colleen: Mm-hmm. So my understanding is that every, you, you cannot be human and not pick up burdens as you, um, grow up.

Right? Um, no. Human life is just seamlessly lovely. Even the best, healthiest, most resourced families [00:23:00] still will have illness, deaths, losses, separations. Um, even if you don't have all of that as a kid, you still might go to a school and be bullied for God knows what reason, right? Um, and, or, you know, a teacher takes a dislike to you and then you pick up.

What we call in IFS burdens, and those are the heavy, um, you know, negative beliefs about yourself. The, the, um, the feelings, body sensations that go along with feeling, um, lonely, ashamed, less than afraid. All of those emotions, all of those states. And so every human being has burdens. You know, if you happen to be, [00:24:00] um, in, you know, um, uh, uh, minority of any kind, you know, um, gay, trans, a person of color, you're going to have heavier burdens because our society doesn't necessarily acknowledge you as being as good as other people that that creates burdens.

Um, being a foster care kit, same thing, right? Um, there are so many ways that, um, we can interact with the world and pick up burdens, but if you have trauma, that's what I call big treat, big T trauma, like, um, you know, parents who are drug addicts. I mean, there's so many, everybody knows the, the list, um, displacement, um, you know, being sexually abused, all those things, those [00:25:00] create very heavy burdens in your system and they can take a lot more time unpacking them now, um, I think you mentioned, how do we work with this on our own?

So is that where you're headed? Feel free to redirect me anytime. 

Cody: Y Yeah. Well, well, well, I, I know that IFS is commonly worked in with, with a therapist, and so I suppose, uh, I'll map it out in two questions, is that, say, uh, how, how would somebody know whether they should consider seeking out a, a therapist to, to work inside internal family systems and how might they start, if they want to try like a little mini session or, or maybe you could walk us through kind of like a, a little coaching session, uh, in terms of how might they start just to kind of, you know, put their feet in the water and see what it, what it's like.

Colleen: Yeah. Um, well if, [00:26:00] if you can, um, just look up, there are so many great IFS workbooks now, and you can, they can take you through getting to know your parts. So. And then working with them. So there's, there's just a, a number of them that are really great. Um, I won't single one out, but Richard Schwartz did publish one last year.

Um, so you can do self-study that way if you can afford therapy. Um, there are wonderful IFS therapists now, and they will take you in, in, they'll accompany you into your own system. But the, the way to start is really to slow down and start to read your body sensations and um, and you know, I carried enough trauma that I couldn't do it myself.

I needed a guide. [00:27:00] Um, if you have a lot of attachment trauma early on, that is in the preverbal period, which is my specialty, then you, your, it can be really scary. To try to wade into your pre-verbal parts. The part, they may not even talk, they may give you a whole lot of body sensations and feelings, um, but very few words.

And also they can feel like they, they just don't know how to do this on their own, you know, so they can, they'll, they, they'll probably require a guide. And so I needed that and still there I have exiles that I need help working with. But you can do a ton of self-study and I think these workbooks are great.

So my book, um, we all Have Parts is a good, great introduction to Internal [00:28:00] Family Systems Therapy. It just gives you the basics, gives you some basics about trauma and burdens and all the, um, terms that we 

Cody: use. So I, I would love for you to describe the three parts, but then also how are the three parts different than, than the self?

Uh, and kind of why is it important to kind of access this core self along with these parts? 

Colleen: Yeah. Well, um, so in IFS, there are just three ki d ki, different kinds of parts. There are managers that I referred to, the ones that run our lives. They're proactive, they have agendas, they, they, you know, um, manage time and all those kinds of things.

They get us through school, all those things. Um, there are firefighters that are the parts of us that are associated with addiction or numbing of any kind, compulsions, um, compulsive behaviors. [00:29:00] Um, those are the parts that are trying to get us out of pain in different ways. Um, trying to soothe or, um, comfort sometimes.

Um, and then there are exiles and so managers and firefighters are what we call protectors. And then there are exiles that are the parts of us that are, um, the ones that just hold the vulnerable feelings. And they are, those are the feelings, body sensations and beliefs that were, um, so painful that they get that, that we need to push them out of awareness.

They get exiled as kids. You know, if, if you were a super vulnerable kid who was in an unsafe environment, then [00:30:00] acting vulnerable might not have been acceptable at all, and so you had to push down. Exile those vulnerable feelings and, and your protectors took over. Some people, you know, especially, especially with severe trauma, have addictive processes of all addictions, of all kinds.

Those are the firefighters. Um, some people have their managers take over and they just get really busy. I was much more that type I, I wasn't super addictive. Um, but most people, all people have some of both and it's just a matter of sort of who dominates in your system. Um, I was a really good girl and so I did, I never went too far into the firefighters, but, um, the, uh, my managers were super highly developed and, [00:31:00] um, there's a lot, there's a lot of.

If your system is dominated by managers, then you can really like a lot of control and you can get burned out and you can have, um, headaches and you can have, um, uh, also, you know, just this kind of, the sense of, um, overwhelm and exhaustion a lot. If your system's dominated by firefighters, and we all know people like this, they just go from kind of one mini addiction to another.

So, you know, it's, um, a little bit of, of, um, you know, um, being on your phone in the morning and then it's food and then it's, um, alcohol or weed at night or TV or movies or gaming. [00:32:00] It's just like a little bit of addictions all day long, every day. And they are often dominated. They, they often feel like their life doesn't get started or they feel stuck in their life.

The ones that are manager driven are zooming ahead, but they don't have that much fun and they can really be vulnerable to burnout. Firefighters. The, the systems that are dominated by firefighters can be, you know, feel like I just never and can catch a break. I can't get ahead. I can't. Right. And the ones that are dominated by exiles, there are also systems like that are fearful, worried, um, sad a lot.

So there's a lot of those vulnerable feelings that are ping up, you know, poking up their heads all the time. So, yeah. Does that answer your question? 

Cody: Yeah. And then [00:33:00] what's the role of, of the self in all this? So if we're able to map, so is is the important part to map out the parts of ourselves and then are we labeling these as manager, firefighter, or exile, or, or how does that work?

Colleen: Um, well, the, so first to talk about the role of the self, um, there's, there is a force within every single person that is for growth and healing. And, um, and you can just call it your essence. Um, you know, some people call it Buddha nature. Some people, some Christians call it Christ Nature, um, or your soul.

Um, it's that you, that existed from the moment there was you and it will be there until the moment you die. And it's the. That little, um, [00:34:00] spark inside you that is unlike anyone else's. You know, it's, everybody knows they have it in their best moments. Um, but also most of us have parts that are kind of eclipsing that self most of the day.

Most of every day. Um, and the goal of IFS is to get to know, have a working appreciation of all of our parts and the roles there that their, their positive intent for us so that we can be more in self, more often. So, Cody, tell me, what's a time in your life when you just felt completely in self energy was open hearted present.

Alive. 

Cody: [00:35:00] Hmm. 

Colleen: That's, that's tough. Um, it doesn't have to be absolute either. Just more of that. 

Cody: I, I suppose probably like the first time I, I traveled outside America. I went to Guatemala by myself, and I, I didn't speak any Spanish. I was alone. I wasn't with a travel group. I just arranged this, this trip on my own.

And I was, uh, at Lake Atitlan, uh, which is just this beautiful area and stayed on this, this really nice little hotel on, on the lake. And, uh, I was, I was by myself and there was like a stark difference where I, I typically would never travel by myself and I think to, to do that. And then I. Along the nature.

I did parasailing, something I was scared to do. I, I went walking in, in the villages, uh, and I was able to take some really amazing photographs and, uh, I, I kind of, in some ways I, I [00:36:00] went on that trip to, to seek, can I be a photographer? Can I have that, that sort of eye. And I was really amazed with the output.

And I, I think that was, that was one of those times where just being there, I, I was so enamored in this realization of, wow, I, I did it. I've been, I kind of overcame so many obstacles that, you know, it seems, it seems, I don't know how many people necessarily travel by themselves, but I think everybody needs, needs to do it at least once in their life.

Right. Um, and I, I was very proud of myself and, uh, and the experience of that trip. 

Colleen: Yeah. So it sounds like you grew in self-love doing that there's some way that you felt this greater appreciation for yourself. Your managers got you there. Sounds like, you know, right? It took a lot of courage to get yourself there.

Um, but then you were in some, clearly in nature in another culture, [00:37:00] outside your normal culture. I actually love how travel does that for many of us. It brings us into curiosity. Uh, such strong curiosity and calm, um, right there, these qualities of self. Um, curiosity, calm creativity, connection. Um, um, there's few others too.

Um, and travel can do that because we are not being driven by our typical managers. Right. The do do doers. Um, although some people go on vacation and then they just, their firefighters take over and they just get drunk, you know, for right. Two weeks. But, um, I, I do think that that beginner's mind place that you describe sounds like it was, had a lot of self energy or [00:38:00] Right.

Um, some people find it when they're sitting with their grandchildren, for example, where, um, the thing about self is that it has no agenda and all of our other parts have agendas. So, you know that, and by the way, let's not denigrate firefighters. Uh, I don't denigrate managers. I don't denigrate firefighters either.

They are positive impulses for relaxation, fun, all of it. Right? Um, and so, you know, there's, there's nothing wrong with. My firefighters saying, Hey, you know, let's just make a great meal and go eat it outside today. Um, everybody needs the, the sweetness in life too, right? It's just when they get really extreme that they can cause [00:39:00] problems.

And same way with managers. So what we're looking for is balance and a system where our self can lead more. So self is full of compassion and full, just like what you visited a moment earlier in your system. Um, self is full of care and full of uh, just that kind of natural curiosity. Natural, calm, self is not tense.

When you describe being in Guatemala, you. I had that kind of calm, like there wasn't a drive there to be any certain way. 

Cody: So, and so in, in some ways is the self just this, this all knowing like, like part of her soul. And I, I'm reminded of this book and it's just, just on the tip of my tongue. Uh, one that I read very long [00:40:00] ti a very long time ago that was informative to so many people that you have the thinking part and then you have like this, this other part of you and we that the whole premise is that we are not our thoughts and too often we identify with our thoughts that there is a part of herself that that doesn't think, but it's there.

And that's truly like the actual part of ourselves. 

Colleen: Yeah. Although self is not a part. So self is the only thing inside that is not a part. So we have to watch our language a little bit, but it's. Um, to me it, the way I experience is it, it's the essence of me that's underneath everything else, that's underneath the voices, underneath the, the agendas, you know?

Um, and yet it is a force for good. Everybody's got it, [00:41:00] you know? Everybody's got it. Um, even the most, um, abused or traumatized, highly traumatized person has this underneath. Um, and, um, can access it through good. IFS therapy can take a while for that, for protectors to get safe enough to soften back, 

Cody: but, 

hmm.

Cody: So, so I, I'd love to kind of move on and something that you pre previously mentioned about the, of really early stuff, so like pre-verbal trauma. Uh, and so as I understand this is kind of trauma that happened before we, we had words or kind of clear memories. So I'm, I'm curious, kind how can something that we don't consciously remember still affect us in adulthood and kind of like what are some of the signs or struggles that might hint that a person has this, that has gone, undergone this [00:42:00] kind of trauma as like an infant or in the room?

Colleen: Yeah. Well, I, pre-verbal trauma, and you can also, often it's called attachment trauma because it's in this early period of time, um, in a baby's life. It's the, the stuff that creates the templates, the sort of implicit, um, templates. That run our lives for the rest of our lives. Um, so it's how much can I trust other people?

Do I look to people as a source of nurturance or are they scary? Um, do I have to be alone to feel safe? Do I, um, believe I'm of value whether I'm producing something or not? All those implicit deep beliefs are laid down in the preverbal period [00:43:00] by your caregivers. And I don't know when you lost your parents, but I can feel when I have a client, I can feel if they were well nurtured for the first year of life and then for some horrible reason they lost their parents, they will carry some scars from that, that I.

Can still feel that they have a, uh, kind of well to draw from of, um, self-compassion, basically self-love and self-compassion. I conversely, if you have a child who is neglected horribly for the first year of life, and then they get some awesome adoptive parents or life changes and they have a really good life, [00:44:00] that early period of time is still running their lives and in very big ways.

Just in those ways, are people safe to go to when I'm in distress or do I need to isolate to feel better? You know, all those basic, basic assumptions. Um, do I have to produce in order to get love to feel worthy of love? That kind of thing. So to me, um, preverbal trauma and, and preventing it, so those of you listening who have new babies or young children, those first years are key.

You know, to really show up and to be consistent and to do your own work during those times. Because then when, when shit happens later, which it will, your child can deal with it. They have what it takes right now [00:45:00] if you suffered, um, early neglect, I, you know, my, my parents were good in some ways, but it was really tough in some ways.

They were very stressed. One way of looking at that is they were in their parts when they were trying to raise me instead of in their self. Right. So they had agenda, uh, very strong agendas for me to do this or that, or achieve or be right. So if you have caregivers who are in their parts all the time, um, or even being abusive, what ends up, um, being encoded is in body sensations and the, just the way you meet the world day to day, the way you meet other people day to day.

Um, and you can't [00:46:00] remember it consciously, but it's amazing that IFS can access it because all those memories are there. But, um, we have methods of, um, learning to track. Our body sensations, learning to help clients track their body sensations and slowly that early material begins to emerge and can be healed.

So does that make sense? 

Cody: Yeah. And, and so that includes things that could be like, like chronic anxiety, that that doesn't seem to have any kind of cause or, or attachment issues as you say, or like a, a profound sense of shame, um, that, that people might be carrying. And so these kinds of, of chronic negative emotions that are impacting us, but we're not really quite sure where they're coming from.

Is that accurate? 

Colleen: Absolutely. Yeah. And those are the things, [00:47:00] the templates that will drive you so nuts because you can't put your finger on why am I so anxious again? No. Or, uh, or why am I feeling that kind of. I'm not good enough. So this is one of the things that made me so convinced that IFS was a, a, a breakthrough therapy because what it does is it, um, we, we take a long time getting to know our client's protective system instead of bypassing it, those protectors and we find out what their positive intentions are and we really start to appreciate them.

Then they can soften back and show us the exiles that are carrying this pre-verbal experience and then witness it and then they can release it. [00:48:00] So that's what we call an unburdening. Um, and they're quite remarkable. You can just lay down energetically. Those beliefs that no longer serve you because yourself was not touched by whatever happened to you, was not touched by your trauma.

It's like a force for good inside your system. I know this sounds really kind of strange when you first hear it, but, but, 

Cody: but, but, but, so at, at the core, it's finding out what, what's, what's going on in your life that, that first perhaps caused you to seek therapy or recognize that something's going on.

And then a part of IFS is helping you to first recognize that. Seems like that can be, like, one of the biggest steps for people is just to being able to recognize what they're feeling that's impacting their, their day-to-day life. And then once you're able to, to kind [00:49:00] of label it then to, to, to under break that down and find out, you know, if, if I'm feeling this chronic anxiety, like where, what parts are causing this?

Because it can be more than one part. And then, uh, to, I suppose to, to unpack that, to, to try to let it go may, maybe to label it, maybe to, to view it as like a, a version of yourself or, or, or some, some, some form that you can visualize or experience or have a conversation with. And then is, is kind of like the, the last part as say, to have self-compassion.

What's kind of like the, the end goal where you would say that somebody's kind of successfully been using IFS? What does that look like? 

Colleen: Yeah. Well, I,

um, the goal is to, um, value your parts for the roles they've [00:50:00] played, get to know them, have them speak. And this is where it's a little bit different from, um, labeling them or, um. You know, uh, kind of having a map of them in your head where, what's different about I fs is you actu actually have a direct conversation with your parts.

Sometimes it's on the level of feelings and body sensations, but you have direct experience with them. And, um, those parts, just like you did earlier, you know, you had this interaction with your parts and they responded to you as you go deeper with that, um, with the, with your own self energy, this force for compassion inside you and the self and the compassion that the self energy of the therapist together [00:51:00] can allow for those parts to just lay down those mistaken beliefs.

You know, there's no reason for Cody to be anxious. In this situation, 'cause that situation isn't happening anymore, right? There's no reason for Colleen to be, to go into shame when she makes a mistake because the stakes just aren't what they were when she was three years old, or two years old, or a year old, right?

Like the people in my life now are generally pretty good, right? Nobody has the same control over me that my parents did, or the same impact on me. So, um, yeah, it's really building relationships with these internal parts. And believe it or not, even, uh, I've worked with fetuses, you know, parts that are [00:52:00] in their mother's womb who are, who picked up burdens and beliefs about themselves.

Um, you know, for, for example, I was doing, uh, an IFS session of my own as the client and realized that, um, I was like a think a four month old in utero, and my mother was just, just so clear. I just knew that part, knew that my mother was overwhelmed and didn't want another baby, and that was as a ba as a tiny little fetus.

I internalized that. So, um, those are the kinds of beliefs, you know, and yet my mom would always want what was best for me, right? She didn't want me to internalize that. Um, and most parents are just doing [00:53:00] the best they can. So, um. Once that part could feel that there was no intent, then she could unburden lay down that belief in those body sensations that went along with it.

Cody: It seems like a lot of trauma kind of comes back to, to attachment, like our, our first relationships. So I maybe having like an emotionally unavailable parents. Right. And I'm, I'm wondering kind of how does that typically translate into parts of ourselves? Like might you be like a people pleaser, uh, or, or somebody that tries to, to overly protect others or something.

What, what kinds of of experiences do you see in, in relation in, in this regard? 

Colleen: Yeah. Well, um, absolutely. Um, [00:54:00] becoming a people pleaser is often an early adaptation. That, um, very young kids, um, take on when their parents are under-resourced in some way. Maybe their parents are just broke, have no money, and are work, each working two jobs.

I mean, but they, they love their, their child and, you know, but circumstances are just, they're so under-resourced that the child becomes a people pleaser to try to lighten the load up there that, that, that their parents are carrying. Um, but yet it's not really, um, uh, it doesn't come from self-compassion.

It comes from the internalizing of the belief. I'm a burden to my parents. Right. Um, in this un under-resourced [00:55:00] family, I'm, I'm another burden. I cost them money and time and attention and all of that. So very often people pleasing comes out of that. I'm a burden, um, belief. Um, I'm too much trouble. I, I'm, you know, I, I'm studying, um, neurodiversity now and autism and I'm learning that there, there is so much, um, kind of added weight that gets added to your system when you, uh, have either, you know, highly sensitive traits or autistic traits or you're autistic and you have so much more sensory input coming in all the time than most people that, um.

You can very easily start to [00:56:00] track other people's responses to you, and it can be internalized as shame or anxiety. And, um, I'm a super, super sensitive person and I, um, you know, I have certain autistic traits and those have become like templates in my system, you know, for, um, having to meet other people's needs because I can't bear people's response, you know, either anger or shaming me or, or that they're disappointed that I disappointed them in some way.

So that's been an ongoing theme in my life and I see it in, in my clients' lives too, even, even in families that were really trying hard. To nurture their children well, um, in [00:57:00] a kind of a, you know, a world that expects us to all act normal and kind of neurotypical, it can be, it can add a lot of pain to, um, a lot of burdens to our parts trying to act, you know, uh, trying to mask or mask our symptoms, mask our sensitivities.

So, um, that's one of the things that's on my mind these days, and I, I just find there's more and more to learn about, um, all of these differences. 

Cody: Yeah. And, and I, I, I guess as somebody who identifies being kind of somewhere around that spectrum. I think when I was young, I would try to find ways, how can I alter my personality so that I can be friends with, with certain people?

And it would always kind of backfire because it came across as disingenuine, [00:58:00] right? And I kind of learned sense to kind of pull back and recognize that, well, some people are going to encounter me and think I'm weird. I mean, I've literally been encountered, I, I've literally called weird on my own podcast of, of kind of a friend that's, that is just very direct.

Um, and so in some ways I've, I've learned to, to not like embody and get embroiled in kind of what other people might say and recognize that, I mean, the best I can do is just be my authentic self. And you know, that's not gonna come across as, as it's not gonna appeal to everybody. But I have to, to recognize, you know, that's fine.

Uh, that I am who I am and I think I would be doing myself with this favor if, if I was trying to be anybody that I'm not. Um. Uh, alternatively, I have this friend that is also on the spectrum, and he's kind of taken this reverse approach where he would be overbearing and he would, uh, he would in some ways instead of like closing up, instead of closing, uh, himself [00:59:00] down, which is kind of in, sometimes, sometimes what I would do, and I think is more common in this kind of, uh, in on the spectrum traits where you just try to, uh, close yourself off from other people is that he would end up being, he would end up actually, uh, inserting his opinions on others and saying kind of rude comments in a way where he was almost eliciting a reaction.

And his response to me is like, well, if people don't like me, they, they're not gonna like me. It was almost like the opposite, um, of where he would be so overbearing in your face that he just put everybody off. And his, it was like a protective mechanism. And I've tried to inform him that he was doing this and he just kind of went off on that, on that bandwagon.

And, you know, I think he's, he's happier than he and he has been. But I still see it as like a protective mechanism. And so, uh, it's like how do you, I guess, how do you handle a situation like that? Um, I dunno if that's a question towards you, but 

Colleen: Well, um, I [01:00:00] think just going back to, uh, I think just going back to what you were saying about, um, being regarded as weird, um, you know, in a sort of a, um,

there's a way that trying to cover that up makes it inauthentic and then you are, um. Interactions with people and your relationships feel somewhat hollow. They don't come from self, they come from parts that are protecting you from, um, being seen as different. I was, um, that was one of the things that happened to me as a kid.

You know, people thought I was really weird. And, um, it started up a, a real lifetime of having to mask that and [01:01:00] to look anything but weird. And then noticing the great cost of that was that, uh, nobody got to know the real me. And so not only was it exhausting, like again, notice the word managers, that was it, manager driven, um, protective, um, kind of pattern.

But people didn't get to see the real me. And so. I didn't get to improve my self-worth over time either, you know, that it was, um, this kind of play acting thing. So I think you're absolutely right that the more we can embrace any, any of these differences, maybe you've got a learning difference. There's so many ways that we can be d different.

We can, you know, look, um, [01:02:00] different than the norm physically. There's so many ways. Um, and the more we're able to just embrace that and drop or soften some of our protective, some of our protectors, the, the more we'll like ourselves and the more we'll be liked in the world too. 

Cody: And, and kind of on that note, uh, as somebody who's kind of worked with people in, in IFS for a long time, I'm wondering how has, how has being a therapist impacted your parts?

I,

Colleen: interesting question.

Cody: Like, have you noticed changes in your own parts, uh, kind of, or, or, or how you relate to yourself over the years, uh, in, in doing therapy with others? I,[01:03:00] 

Colleen: well, when I first started out as a trainee, I was doing therapy, um, kind of through my protector. So I was acting empathic even when I didn't feel empathic. It was kind of a performance early on. And I knew it didn't feel good, but I couldn't figure out how else to do it. Um, because I was afraid, you know, I was afraid I was gonna make a mistake.

Um, but after you get more experience, I was just talking to a, I mentor therapist now, and she's just talking to a new therapist. She's been working a couple, um, years, and she's still in that place of, I'm, I'm, I'm about to make a mistake all the time. So, um, but I have to adopt the right, um, behavior [01:04:00] instead, um, of, in IFS you notice, okay, I've got a part here.

Um, what's it worried about? Let's ask it to soften back so I can just be the real me right now in self with this other person. But over time in my career, I became more and more authentic with clients and, um, my compassion became deeper and deeper and deeper. And, um, and that has a lot to do with just having the awareness at any time that we're all really the same, you know?

Um, ultimately, um, any therapist is gonna have the same kinds of issues that their clients are having. Um, you know, different details, but the same sorts of things. It's all being human. [01:05:00] And, um, and it was a big advance for me learning IFS because I began to do IFS therapy myself, which really helped me free myself from my past and.

Become just more able to be present, uh, to be softer, to be less agenda driven, um, and ultimately to be a, a lot less, uh, fatigued by doing therapy too, because fatigue comes from being in our protectors, right? And when our protectors are softened back, there's just not a lot of efforting that goes on.

Cody: Right. So I, I'd love to do kind of a, a quick myth busting round with you if you're game, uh, the idea is I'll state kind of a common [01:06:00] myth or a misconception about trauma therapy and then you can kind of give us the truth. I'll do my best. So myth, people with multiple parts have multiple personality disorder.

Colleen: Absolutely not. We all have multiple parts, we're all multiples. Um, it's just the way the human psyche is made. Um, yeah, 

Cody: it's, it's actually quite miraculous. Oh, myth. If I don't remember any trauma, I must not have any, 

Colleen: many traumas are just put out of awareness for self-protective reasons. Um, there are parts that make us forget traumas.

Um, and that's completely normal, and that is also healthy because if we can't tolerate remembering a trauma, then there's a part that's gonna help us by helping us forget [01:07:00] it. They're still in there, everything's encoded there, and we can get back to it. 

Cody: Myth trauma therapy is only about rehashing painful memories.

Colleen: Absolutely not. Um, referring back to something we said at the beginning, um, there are lots of people who still do talk therapy and talk therapy, can help us work through things in our lives, talk things over. Um, but it, that's not really a transformational therapy. Transformational therapy is more than going in and talking to somebody and feeling better.

It's actually changing the way we hold, um, trauma beliefs, body sensations in our systems, and freeing us from those. So, um, find a tr uh, [01:08:00] transformational therapy rather than a talk therapy, I would say. 

Cody: And, and that, that's kind of the end of, of the myth busting. Uh, and so kind of as we're kind of wrapping up, I, I'd love to, to ask is for somebody who's listening and, and they might relate to, uh, this idea parts of themselves or realize that they might have in result trauma, I'm wondering what are a couple of things that they might be able to do to start, start healing on their own, um, and support their, their parts?

I mean, I, I, I know seeking a therapist is always like a, a number one recommendation. I know that you have mindfulness and, and journaling. Um, what things it could, could be philosophies, methodologies, books, anything that might come to mind to help somebody. 

Colleen: Yeah. Well, um, there are tons of great podcasts that talk about internal family systems.

There's, if FS talks, I would highly recommend, um, listening to that too. Um, [01:09:00] because it'll give you a lot of, um, kind of. A nice understanding of internal family systems. Um, I, my book is also a great introduction. We all have parts, um, and there are also really great books, um, by Richard Schwartz. Um, the, the one that I really like is no bad Parts, super accessible to, um, anybody.

Um, it's not written in a super, you know, academic style or anything like that. It's an easy read. Um, so that's where I would start. Yeah.

Cody: So, so Colleen, you've, you've worked with so many, many trauma survivors. Uh, I'm wondering what would you say to somebody out there that's struggling in darkness but kind of afraid to confront their trauma new, any words of hope or [01:10:00] encouragement you would want them to hear? 

Colleen: And no matter what's happened to you, you can, well, you can get help, um, and you can grow and change and transform.

Um, it can be very slow work at the beginning, but what I've learned is if you can find a safe person to work with, um, a trustworthy person, that if you can stay with it for the long haul, that growth accelerates and that you can, um, live a really good life whether or not you are, um, carrying, you know, still carrying burdens.

So it's really worth the journey. I think we're all on a journey. Uh, I think our souls are on journeys and I [01:11:00] think that. Um, being on earth at this time is a very hard school. And, um, so we're here to learn. And I think that, um, you know, gather people around you that can help you do that. Don't keep retraumatizing yourself.

No. Go where it's warm. I like, I like to think about that. Go where it's warm. 

Cody: Well, well, Colleen, this was a fantastic conversation. I, I can't tell you how much I appreciate kind of you breaking all of this down for us today. Uh, and, and I, I think what, what really hits me is that we, we shouldn't think of these parts as enemies that we need to defeat, but they're there actually trying to help us even when, when it feels like they're being a total pain in the ass.

So, a hundred percent true. [01:12:00] If you're listening and you found yourself thinking, wait, that sounds like me during kind of any part of our conversation, do yourself a favor and grab Colleen's book. We all have parts. It's, it's not your typical dense therapy book. It's got these like really great illustrations that I, I love that I was looking at for, for minutes, uh, uh, five minutes, just like on each page.

Uh, I, I love that it, you provide like a roadmap of when, you know, if you're kind of lost in the woods. Um, because I think healing, it's, it's not about becoming this, this perfect version of ourselves, but it's about like showing up, right? And, and connecting with our ourself first and then with others. So I, I think j just get curious about that.

You know, that voice in your head that's always criticizing you or that part that just wants to hide from the world. Uh, I think there, there's something incredible in, in all of us, and if we can just find the, this compassionate itself. Um, that's not broken and really [01:13:00] never was. So if you found value in today's episode, I'd be incredibly grateful if you'd share it with someone who might need to hear it.

And if you haven't already, please hit the subscribe so you never miss an episode or leave us a rating or review. It really helps. So all the links to Collins work are in the show notes. Until next time, this is Cody McClain. Hey, stay curious about what's happening in that wild, amazing head of yours.